• mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    When presenting a vespers service that is entirely chant except the reading and final prayers, do you just hang around the same pitches whatever the mode might be? That's my instinct on this because it would just let the music and text flow, but I'm just checking. Thanks.
  • Mary Jane, when I did a NO Evening Prayer (just can't bring myself to call it Vespers..), we used recto tono on much of it, but I would probably change that now. It got really tedious after a while. I think someone mentioned at colloquium that the antiphons do have melodies, but they are buried in one of the books. I don't quite believe that, but worth looking. I would probably come up some some tune that works for the antiphons at least. I hope I understood your question. Good luck finding a tune for the Revelation canticle. We ended up using "This is the Feast". I'm not sure I want to even try one of these again. It's just not built for singing like the EF Vespers unless you have a staff composer like Westminster.
  • Geoff
    Posts: 22
    Chrysogonous Waddell has a version of the Revelation canticle that is based off of the Paschaltide form of the responsory of the little hours of the Divine Office. See page 16 of the 1912 Antiphonale Romanum (http://www.musicasacra.com/pdf/antiphonale-bw.pdf).
  • Geoff
    Posts: 22
    I believe there's also a version in the back of the Christian Prayer book. Does anyone know why the Sunday Revelation canticle was designed the way it was? Is the designed based off of some other chant?
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    I've got a "hybrid" vespers. I've taken two of the Latin antiphons and two psalms in English (with a modified Gregorian tone). Responsory from the LU, along with the Magnificat antiphon. Magnificat also in Latin alternatim version. I confess that I'm not using the New Testament canticle. The purpose of these rather mystifies me. I did move the hymn to the beginning, as in the LOTH, and have taken their intercessions and prayer.

    What I was referring to was basically starting everything off on pretty much the same note. My schola sounds good with A as their reciting tone.

    I agree recto tono can get old really fast. St. Edith Stein wrote to someone about the Carmelites that they chanted on one tone, except on feast days when they chanted on too. Talk about penitential!
  • OK. Yes, starting on the same tone is fine as long as the chants are in the same range. I'm guessing that you are singing the Magnificat in the tone that follows the antiphon, but I do like singing the Magnificat (and the antiphon) a tone higher than the psalms if possible. It makes it sound a bit more special. Don't forget that the Magnificat verses always have the initium rather than starting on the reciting tone.

    Good luck. I'm sure you have reasons for doing a hybrid, but you lose the effect of the "whole Church's prayer" when you do this.
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    Thank you geoff! I've been putzing with a project to format a simply chanted Sunday Vespers booklet in English modeled after the Mundelein Psalter (http://www.vocations.org/liturgicalinstitute/projects/psalter/Sunday EP II Week 1.pdf) but with Gregorian tones (and not copyrighted so I could print it myself). I got stuck on the Revelation Canticle because I couldn't set any kind of psalm tone to it and I'm not a composer. I really like the Mundelein version but couldn't just rip it off. Your source from the Antiphonale was just the idea I needed! The result is attached below.

    Feel free to use and rework if like. The antiphons are for Sunday Week I. Following Mundelein, the flex is just a pause for breath. Italicized syllable is where to move off the tenor. Any extra syllables fall on the last note. I also used Mundelein's placement of the alleluias.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Dan, I printed out your Sunday week I evening prayer II. I never did Vespers. Could you tell me where I can find music for those prayers?
    Thanks,
    Mia
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    There's no easy answer to your question. The canticle I posted was only one of three psalms/canticles and part of Vespers, and there are other prayers as well. There are many options to choose from, and as you can tell from this discussion you often have to track down pieces of it if you want to sing it. Two resources: 1) for the (unofficial) text of the Divine Office including Vespers (Evening prayer) go to http://universalis.com/, 2) for examples of simple chanted hours try the Mundelein Psalter http://www.vocations.org/liturgicalinstitute/projects/psalter/psalter home 2007.htm. It has some example hours for you to see.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thanks for the info. I wish there was a book that has music and prayers for the Vespers with translation (something like Gregorian Missal), at least for special seasons like Advent and Lent. I guess I'm a bit spoiled. I should do some of my own research.
  • miacoyne. If you want to do an Extraodinary Form Vespers, there are translations at http://www.breviary.net/

    They make you hunt a bit for the day you want, but it's all there.

    For the Ordinary Form, there are a set of 4 liturgical books (no translation needed). I'm not sure you want to do the OF in Latin. What's the point? No one is "used to it", so do the EF. It's much better.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    I want to try EF, if it's not too hard for my schola. It will be actaully a good way to start a EF in our parish. Of course I have to talk to our pastor. Maybe once a month. Thanks for the info. My schola will be excited.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    I agree with Michael on breviary.net. I find the day I want to searching that website (they have a little Google thing-y) for the feast in question and then eliminating the zillion martyrology entries. The translations for the prayers are occasionally a little too "archaic" for me, so I smooth the English out while still leaving it fairly formal.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    I like http://universalis.com for its simplicity. With a little bit of URL gymnastics you can search about a month forward if you're preparing for a specific day.

    Michael - Our monthly Vespers (First Friday evening) is a lay ministry for the time being. We do a prelude (generally the Ad Vesperas II for the day), Magnificat and Marian hymn in Latin in an otherwise English language Liturgy. By printing the words, music and translations we are catechizing the participants to understand the meaning of the prayers. Each month we have noticed more and more people joining in the Magnificat and Regina Caeli despite the dimly remembered language and unfamiliar chant notation. They are becoming nearly as audible as when they alternate sides for the strophes of the (English language) Psalms.

    "The point?" you ask? It is to draw people into a fuller participation of the Liturgy of the Hours in the presence of Our Lord in exposition.
  • MIa was asking about doing the LoH in Latin, which prompted my question. If one has to choose between the LoH and the Tridentine Office in Latin, it's a no-brainer.

    Now, if one wants to encourage people to think of liturgy outside of Mass, the LoH works well enough. As you might tell, I was horrified when I first learned what had been to it. This was only a few years ago. I only knew the ancient form through my research and historical performances. When asked to put together a LoH EP 1, I was aghast that the psalms were gone (well, the ones I knew). Also a reading during Vespers just doesn't sit right with me (don't get me started on the homily!). The hymn is also in the wrong place IMO. Read Dobzay on this, but be prepared to vent your anger somewhere productive!
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    The secret to doing the LOTH is to find something like the Mundelein Psalter for the psalms. Your average edition of Christian Prayer or some such doesn't have the psalms arranged for singing, but for reading. Also don't forget that the "psalm prayers" are an ICEL addition and can be disregarded. I find them intrusive to the movement between antiphons and psalms.

    Vespers always had a little chapter in the old form, so just take that one. What I find inexplicable is the scrambling and discarding of antiphons. Oops, starring to vent. Sorry
  • das
    Posts: 16
    Michael said: " ...between the LoH and the Tridentine Office in Latin, it's a no-brainer."

    I spent two weeks, last April, at Regina Laudis, (abbeyofreginalaudis.com), nothing comes close to the Tridentine Office, especially once you've lived it in community.

    IMO, If you must use English, Douay-Rheims is still better than Mundelein. Doing your own psalm pointing isn't all that difficult. It's much closer to the Latin, and should you ever transition to all Latin, or even partially so, you'll find it easier for everyone.

    The original question about tonal centers is a good one. At Regina Laudis they changed (if I remember correctly) at the hymn and canticle. The psalms stayed the same whatever the mode might be. They usually pitched everything lower at Vespers, as it was getting towards the end of their day - less energy and gentler on the voice.

    Good Luck!
  • das
    Posts: 16
    Also, it's the Antiphonale Monasticum 1938 (still available from Solemes) that you need for the sung antiphons. The Monastic Diurnal (no music) is also quite helpful (farnboroughabbey.org).
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Just for the record, here is the Libellus from our First Friday Vespers service. The Holy Eucharist is in Exposition all day after Mass with mid-afternoon Benediction (3:00 pm), evening Vespers (6:30pm) and Reposition (8:30pm). The "Ad Vesperas II" is sung by the Schola Cantorum. All sing the Hymn, and the Schola leads both the Magnificat and Regina Coeli. We notice that each month, more and more congregates join in the Latin singing. When this lay ministry began 5 months ago we had 20 people in attendance including the 8 Scholites; tonight we had just over 50 people. Brick by brick.
  • Dan F.Dan F.
    Posts: 205
    Thanks, priorstf! I like the artwork you've chosen for the layout. It's interesting to hear that the people gradually begin to join in singing the Magnificat. I've tried to set the ICEL English Magnificat to that tune with no luck. Maybe I'll just use the latin after all.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    The image of St Alphonsus came from the C.Ss.R. website.

    If I recall correctly, we can all thank Jeffrey Tucker for the woodcut artwork leads. Ages ago he posted some incredible websites with those images for us:
    http://inillotempore.com/blog/images/gallery/LineArt
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/musicasacra/sets/72157600482960722/
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you for posting Libellus (I like that term.) Where can I find music for Ad Vesperas II? (I definitely have to take class on this.)
    Mia
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Mia - The chant notation for the Liturgy of the Hours is all in the Liber Hymnarius. And yes, doing LotH takes a LOT of work. If the NSA could write secret codes as complex as figuring out which prayer goes where in the LotH, nobody would ever decipher them.

    (By the way, my thanks to whomever it was to recommended Exsultemus to me. Excellent book of translations of the LotH but, as you warned, they get a bit on the flowery side. So far I'm combining my own limited Latin with what is in Exsultemus to at least get the gist of the prayers into the hands of the faithful.)

    At the moment I'm using a combination of the following books. I just use Amazon references for simplicity. They might be less expensive elsewhere, and when it come to where I buy I prefer buying directly from the smaller Catholic presses out there even when it costs a few dollars more. Keep them alive!

    The General Instructions for the Liturgy of the Hours (http://www.ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm),
    Liber Hymnarius (http://www.amazon.com/Liber-Hymnarius/dp/2852740761/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217705711&sr=1-1)
    The Ceremonial of Bishops (http://www.amazon.com/Ceremonial-Bishops-Liturgical-Press/dp/0814618189/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217705159&sr=8-1),
    Christian Prayer (http://www.amazon.com/Christian-Prayer-Catholic-Book-Publishing/dp/0899424066/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217705243&sr=1-5) and
    and most recently
    Exsultemus (http://www.amazon.com/Exsultemus-Rejoicing-hymns-Roman-breviary/dp/1880810476/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217705402&sr=1-1)
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    Thank you for the list. It's all together now.
    Mia
  • Here is a neat thing: Sunday Vespers, Latin/Chinese
  • We have just started a monthly vespers service. I am using the Book of Christian Prayer for the Text, psalm tone for the psamody and antiphons. The Magnificat I have taken from the Book of Christian prayers. Except for the hymns, the rest is read. This is about as complex as the Catholics in our diocese can manage. Both vespers and chant are a complete novelty to 99% of the people.
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Sounds extremely familiar! We have the Vespers service on First Friday. There is an all-day exposition of which Vespers is a part.

    The schola has learned the Magnificat (psalm tone) and the Regina Coeli for a postlude. They also sing the Ad Invitatorium as a prelude. Technically should be sung earlier in the day, but I figure most of the attendees haven't said any of the other Hours and it won't hurt! There is also a traditional Catholic hymn sung by all.

    We're slowly but surely growing in participation. Had about 25 our first time six months ago; last Friday it was about 80. It has been a lay ministry up to now, but we had a priest participate for the first time on Friday, so there was a homily and benediction. It really added to the solemnity. Glad to learn we're not alone.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Jeffrey - I refuse to learn Chinese!

    I need to put together an "Evening Prayer" for All Souls' Day, using the Liturgy of the Hours, not my usual hybrid of the Roman Breviary. The priest in charge also wants the Dies Irae and the In Paradisum (that's why he's asked my schola). I assume we're going to process around to the Dies Irae. I guess I could use the In Paradisum as a prelude? Any suggestions on the placement of these items in a vespers in a historic cemetery?

    I'm glad to hear about all the "vesperal" blossomings.
  • Vespers in a cemetery? Interesting. I'd save In paradisum for the very last thing. The good folks in the ground will appreciate the sentiment. Dies irae in a graveyard? Is he TRYING to creep everyone out?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Just finding/resurrecting this thread now....

    The Revelation canticle is set in Latin in the new Antiphonale Romanum, and the tones can be very easily adapted to English.
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    The secrets of Vespers--according to the Novus Ordo in the Latin language--should be disclosed in this book:
    http://www.paracletepress.com/antiphonale-romanum-ii.html
  • The Dies Irae can replace the responsory
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    They are disclosed there - pretty much in the just the manner as I assumed they would be - just only for Sundays and solemnities. However, the model there makes it clear how to handle everything else. One should have mostly all the resources needed in the Liber Hymnarius, Antiphonale Romanum II, Ordo Cantus Officii, and Antiphonale Monasticum I, II, and III.