Question on 24th Sund OT Cyc
  • mjcurtis
    Posts: 62
    Going from the antiphon to the verses, the C clef shifts where the verses start on an A pitch. However, at the end of the antiphon the custos is on a high E pitch. Should the verses be sung starting on the E or the A???
  • mjcurtis
    Posts: 62
    This is Cycle A on the Communion entitled "Tollite"
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    OK, I'm no expert but I will venture my best educated guess, just to see if I'm right... First, are you looking at the version posted here, from Communio? There is obviously a transcription error somewhere, since the two custodes (third declension?) do not agree with each other. This can be reconcilied by replacing the initial DO clef with a FA clef. While working in the FA hexachord will give you almost all of the correct letter-names, you would land on a half-step (Si-natural) on the last two syllables of "Dominus." I do not believe a flat is permitted on the lowest note of a melody. Therefore, I'm going to guess that when doing the transcription the editor misplaced the initial and final custosses as if relating them to the FA clef.

    Anyone?
  • mjcurtis
    Posts: 62
    Yes, it is the version posted on this site of Tollite. The same thing occurs in "Per Signum" for the Feast of the Triumph of the Cross Saptember 14.

    It is interesting because most chants in MODE IV are centered around E or MI. In this case of these chants it is centered on B creating almost a moveable DO where B is the new MI. This is also true of some chants in MODE II. Most are centered on the final of D, but some are much higher centered on the final of A.

    Therefore, to match the final of B, the verse should start on E. That's where my ear goes. However, that would create F#'s for it to be correct, which seems silly. If the verses are lower starting on an A, it seems silly to have the final different in the verses than in the antiphon.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I'm surprised the chant scholars haven't jumped on this thread. Is it true that you can move DO? And in that way avoid FA sharp or MI flat? That does seem to make sense with what I said above, except for its being an error. It seems to me, however, that there should be a better way to indicate this.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Hmmm, where's Ostrowski when you need him?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Hi, Jeffrey. Thanks for the heads up.

    Willi Apel explains this on some of his very best pages (157-165 of "Gregorian Chant").

    He lists "Tollite Hostias" on page 160 as a transposed chant (in the old calendar, this was Communion for the 18th Sunday of Pentecost).

    For those that are bothered (as I believe people have noted above), one can simply change the "C" clef to a "Fa" clef and pretend there is a flat on the last tone of the word DOMINUS. It makes no difference.

    In a nutshell it is important to realize that a lot of these chants were composed before the "8 Church Modes" were really set in stone, and some of them fit rather awkwardly into the system.

    The example I always use (to help explain) is the simple responses at Mass, like "Dominus vobiscum" --- where does that fit on the scale? It is only two notes! It could be DO RE, or RE MI, or FA SOL, or SOL LA, or LA TI --- it just doesn't matter. It doesn't make a bit of difference. Now, granted, stupid musicologists who are accustomed to diatonic scales get all bent out of shape as they LOOK BACK on the music, and they say, "Oh, which is it? Which is it? How can we classify Dominus Vobiscum?" But when it was first composed, it didn't make any difference. The chant melodies were only LATER placed into the 8 Mode system we now speak of, and (as Apel makes so clear) some of them fit rather awkwardly. Hence, "transposed" chants.

    (N.B. Since more and more people started using the Preface Dialogue we now know, "Dominus Vobiscum" melody is now normally thought of as being on LA to TI or RE to MI)

    The Apel book would be worthwhile to purchase if only for those pages (but, actually, it is worthwhile for a bunch of other reasons).

    It is too long to explain, but the good news is that the Apel book is only $8 on Amazon.com (and $8 on Abebooks) --- you won't regret buying it!

    Author: Willi Apel Title: "Gregorian Chant"
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Jeff, I second your plug for Willi Apel's book. Somehow our small town California library had THAT particular book about Chant, and no other, and while a lot of it was (and still is) over my head, it's extremely interesting reading.
  • MariaRist
    Posts: 17
    Using the Mode III Gloria Patri from the Liber Usualis works a lot better than the Mode IV one, to lead back into the antiphon.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    SEVEN YEARS
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Well, good things come to those who wait. ;D
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