purpose of parish choir
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    What is the purpose of the parish choir? The reason I am asking is I am thinking our current parish choir, of which I am director, is not able to fulfill its purpose, though I'm a little fuzzy on exactly what that purpose is. I'm going to have a meeting soon with our priest to discuss this so would appreciate some input.

    Thank you!
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694

    If you don't know what its purpose is, why make the statement that it "is not able to fulfill its purpose"?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Who called the meeting - you or the pastor? (It's not a meeting I would call if I were music director and did not already know the answers to the questions.)

    If the alternative to cultivating the choir or a schola is to fall back onto cantors, this essay might provide some cautionary background before assuming that cantors would be a normative replacement for a choir or schola.

    http://www.adoremus.org/0703Soloists.html
    Thanked by 1teachermom24
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    To answer your question (I do think this could make a very interesting discussion!)

    I think the purpose of a parish choir is:

    -to support the congregation singing. In my parish and many others, most of the congregation doesn't sing at all, and it helps to have a choir gathered in one place to "lead" them so that they don't feel like they are the only person singing.

    -to learn new music to introduce to the congregation so the congregation can "follow along" and eventually learn.

    -to learn new music that the congregation would never be capable of learning, and to sing it at appropriate points during liturgies to allow the congregation to reflect on the words and pray and meditate with the help of the beautiful singing.

    -to foster a sense of camaraderie. When people enjoy being together, they are more likely to come regularly and sing. In many parishes, the choir is the center of any social life among church members as a group! Would that Catholics encouraged fellowship as much as many of our Protestant brethren, and the choir is a great place to start!

    I'm sure I have forgotten some, but these are my initial thoughts.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen Claire H Chris Allen PurpleSquirrel
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I usually say the purpose of the choir is to drive me to drink. ;-) However, they sing at one mass each Sunday, and lead the congregation in hymns and the mass ordinary. They also sing motets and anthems at appropriate times, sing propers, and sing at special occasions such as confirmations. All this falls within the guidelines set by the pastor. Talking with the pastor is the first and most important step in determining those guidelines.
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    OK, the "adoremus" piece answered my questions. Thank you!!
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Isn't that question answered in Sing to the Lord?

    Somewhere or other, I think there's church legislation which speaks to this.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Or, if you're looking to go beyond what the liturgical function is and ask "what are we doing?", I boil it down to three points: Service, Education, Fellowship. They serve the parish through their talent, they learn more about the liturgy and music, and they enjoy Christian friendship with like-minded people.
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    Thank you "marajoy"--that is very helpful. Our choir is so small, mostly just my children and myself, that I was wondering if it would be better just to suspend it for a year and rely on organist (my son) and cantor (me). We tried recruiting last year to no avail and I think we are looking at another year of the same.

    I am not the "music director" for the parish--only the "choir director" with responsibility for one Sunday Mass, Sept-May. We have no music director but do have three distinct music factions: LifeTeen, the "Glory & Praise" crowd that has the Sat vigil Mass with the synthesizer, and our choir which employs the best sacred music I can find (limited by OCP). We have a brand-new priest (as of July 1) who doesn't seem to favor one over the other except to give LifeTeen preference over our choir whenever they want it.

    I'm just not sure what to say about this coming year but have been praying a novena to Pope St. Pius X asking for guidance. I think he prompted me to post my question here!
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I read the Adoremus article with great interest; however, I think that the author makes some sweeping generalizations about "soloists."

    In my neck of the South Texas brush country, I serve as a "cantor" at my father's parish and as a substitute at my own (on an emergency basis). For the better part of a year, I have been chanting the SEP Introit and Communion Antiphons. Although the ideal is to have a choir do this, we do not have the resources at my dad's parish to even get that going.

    I lead the chants of the Mass, I chant the responsorial psalm and I lead the faithful in singing the Offertory, Communion hymn and the recessional. At my parish in Austin, I had observed the cantor step back from the mike so that the faithful could sing and I try to do the same.

    In my own parish, where we have four choirs (three in English and one in Spanish), the faithful do not necessarily sing, especially during Masses where Spirit and Song is used. The content, I believe, has a lot to do with it. This past Sunday, the youth choir (which is a small one) did not show up and the celebrant asked me, some 30 seconds before Mass began, if I could help out with the singing. Having to pick music on the fly (my parish is not too keen on the Introits), I was able to select hymns that were theologically sound and easy to sing (At the Lamb's High Feast, Where Charity and Love Prevail, Gift of Finest Wheat and O God, Our Help in Ages Past). The faithful were able to sing these rather easily and well. They also joined in the responsorial psalm (which they do most of them time) and the ICEL chants (which they also do). The same observation can be made, more or less, for the Spanish Masses.

    At the end of Mass, the faithful wind up applauding the choir, especially after the mid-day liturgy.

    I wish that my local musical experience with choirs embodied what marajoy spelled out in her post.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Here's the passage from the USCCB document Sing to the Lord. The document makes the point that the choir's role is a specialized role distinct from the congregation, and that the choir is meant to sing parts of the liturgy that require more than average skill, such as the changeable propers, or the more ornate parts of Mass ordinary settings.



    The Choir

    28. The Second Vatican Council stated emphatically that choirs must be diligently
    promoted while ensuring that “the whole body of the faithful may be able to contribute that
    active participation which is rightly theirs. . . .”[SC 114] The choir must not minimize the musical
    participation of the faithful. The congregation commonly sings unison melodies, which are more
    suitable for generally unrehearsed community singing. This is the primary song of the Liturgy.
    Choirs and ensembles, on the other hand, comprise persons drawn from the community who
    possess the requisite musical skills and a commitment to the established schedule of rehearsals
    and Liturgies. Thus, they are able to enrich the celebration by adding musical elements beyond
    the capabilities of the congregation alone.

    29. Choirs (and ensembles—another form of choir that commonly includes a combination
    of singers and instrumentalists) exercise their ministry in various ways. An important ministerial
    role of the choir or ensemble is to sing various parts of the Mass in dialogue or alternation with
    the congregation. Some parts of the Mass that have the character of a litany, such as the Kyrie
    and the Agnus Dei, are clearly intended to be sung in this manner. Other Mass parts may also be
    sung in dialogue or alternation, especially the Gloria, the Creed, and the three processional
    songs: the Entrance, the Preparation of the Gifts, and Communion. This approach often takes the
    form of a congregational refrain with verses sung by the choir. Choirs may also enrich
    congregational singing by adding harmonies and descants.

    30. At times, the choir performs its ministry by singing alone. The choir may draw on the
    treasury of sacred music, singing compositions by composers of various periods and in various
    musical styles, as well as music that expresses the faith of the various cultures that enrich the
    Church. Appropriate times where the choir might commonly sing alone include a prelude before
    Mass, the Entrance chant, the Preparation of the Gifts, during the Communion procession or after
    the reception of Communion, and the recessional. Other appropriate examples are given in the
    section of this document entitled “Music and the Structure of the Mass” (nos. 137-199). The
    music of the choir must always be appropriate to the Liturgy, either by being a proper liturgical
    text or by expressing themes appropriate to the Liturgy.

    31. When the choir is not exercising its particular role, it joins the congregation in song.
    The choir’s role in this case is not to lead congregational singing, but to sing with the
    congregation, which sings on its own or under the leadership of the organ or other instruments.

    32. Choir members, like all liturgical ministers, should exercise their ministry with
    evident faith and should participate in the entire liturgical celebration, recognizing that they are
    servants of the Liturgy and members of the gathered assembly.

    33. Choir and ensemble members may dress in albs or choir robes, but always in clean,
    presentable, and modest clothing. Cassock and surplice, being clerical attire, are not
    recommended as choir vesture.


    Thanked by 2Gavin marajoy
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Teachermom24,

    Surely the purpose of a choir is to do two things:

    1) To worship God through music
    2) To raise the hearts and minds of the assembled faithful to that same purpose.

    Everything else is extra. Some of the rest is distractively extraneous.

    God bless,

    Chris
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    31. When the choir is not exercising its particular role, it joins the congregation in song.
    The choir’s role in this case is not to lead congregational singing, but to sing with the
    congregation, which sings on its own or under the leadership of the organ or other instruments.

    ugh . . . now I'm back to my original dilemma. Our choir is incapable of exercising a "particular role". I am, at best, an amateur director (I learned how to direct the choir by watching YouTube--I kid you not!) and all we have ever done is prepare hymns out of the "Music Issue" and lead the congregation in singing. My daughter and I serve as cantors for the psalmody and Gospel acclamation. I pick the hymns for the Mass, giving first attention to theology and then ease of singing. For the summer, I am still serving as cantor (in the above role) and my son plays the organ. I do not think the choir is missed and my question is, why should it come back without 1)more members or 2) a choir director capable of leading them to serve in their "particular role"? This is what I am thinking of asking our pastor, which is, essentially, proposing the elimination of my job, spare only what I do on a volunteer basis anyway.

    BTW, we are in NW Tenn with very few, and no Catholic, trained sacred musicians. I am the best our parish could come up with.

    Any advice?

  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Teachermom, for all your frustrations, trials, and tribulations, you are richly blessed with grace for what you have been doing. It's not easy, many of us have been there in our own eerily similar ways. Frustration and disappointment are not your reward, but they are the sacrifice you make in order to give your church something better, something worthy, something sacred. Your reward comes from above, from the Father in heaven, who by the grace of his only Son, has surrounded and filled you with the Holy Spirit.

    Each of us, whether here in Hudson, Wisconsin, or in Visalia, California, or Richmond, Virginia - or wherever - are enriched by learning of your calling and even more by your coming here to seek advice, paltry as it may seem. Yet our enrichment is pallid in comparison with that of your church by your very presence and faithful work there. God bless you.

    Chuck
    Thanked by 5benedictgal Ally CharlesW teachermom24 ryand
  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    I like what I have read above.

    Teachermom - Keep in mind that sometimes the "particular role" might simply be the responsorial Psalm and the Alleluia. You gotta start somewhere. Best of luck.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Why not expand to the propers?
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    Another take from "The Loyal Opposition
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Instead of eliminating what you have now, build on it. Some of the most beneficial things can be done with simple music.

    Does your priest currently sing the start of the Mass ("In the name of the Father...") and the dialogues with the people ("The Lord be with you", etc.)?
    Thanked by 2Gavin Liam
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    Our priest has only been here two weeks. He sang many of the "dialogue" parts the first week, fewer the second.

    Gavin, I have no idea what it means to "expand to the propers". We have four congregation hymns: entrance, offertory, communion and closing.

    One thought I did have was to try to learn the communion antiphons with the choir and sing that during Holy Communion. We have a congregational hymn after. Presently, my son plays the organ during Holy Communion.

    I also asked our priest about switching to the "English Chant Mass" instead of the "Heritage Mass" which is what we do now (except in Advent and Lent when we do Latin Mass parts). He said he wants to hear it which is why we are meeting next week.

    Thank you all for all your help.

    Kathy
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    I am not a fan of Communion hymns as such. Psalms, yes; propers, too. Probably best practice would be the proper communion antiphon (starting while the celebrant receives communion - the rubrics are clear that it's not supposed to be silence at that point) followed by a responsorial psalm (psalms 34 (antiphon: Taste and see the goodness of the Lord), 78 (antiphon: The Lord gave them bread from heaven) and 84 (antiphon: You open your hand and fill every creature with your kindness*) are good places to start, and you could pull suitable redactions of those from the Lectionary) as the regulars in the congregation just sing the antiphon and less dependent on the music once exposed regularly to them. Once firmly in the repertoire, you could rotate the psalm on a weekly basis.

    In fact, this summer is a great opportunity to impress Psalms 34 and 78 on your congregation: it's that part of the three-year lectionary cycle where the (short) Gospel of Mark is filled out by a cursus through the Bread of Life discourses in the Gospel of John; the Gospel pericopes are frequently paired with Psalm 34 and 78. (It just happens - and probably not coincidently - that this is timed to occur in that part of the year when the wheat harvest would historically have occurred. Look up Lammas Day, for example.)

    * Psalm 84 is used mostly for ritual Masses like ordinations and dedications and during weeks of Ordinary Time Year II. But it's perfect for this purpose, too.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I use the excellent communion propers by Rice. Then if it is a choir mass, I play while the choir receives communion, then a hymn is sung leaving some silence afterwards. If I have a cantor, I begin the hymn after the proper, then play. Every place is a bit different in how communion works, so you will have to adjust to your own situation.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    The document Musicam Sacram (paragraphs 29-31) gives recommendations for which parts of the Mass are most basic to sing, and which should be added later.

    These are the most basic parts: the document speaks of them as the "first degree":

    (a) In the entrance rites: the greeting of the priest together with the reply of the people; the prayer.

    (b) In the Liturgy of the Word: the acclamations at the Gospel. [This refers to the dialogue "The Lord be with you", etc.]

    (c) In the Eucharistic Liturgy: the prayer over the offerings; the preface with its dialogue and the Sanctus; the final doxology of the Canon, the Lord's prayer with its introduction and embolism; the Pax Domini; the prayer after the Communion; the formulas of dismissal.

    The music for these is all in the Missal, and you can see it on-line at ICEL's website. (Scroll down to "The Order of Mass".)

    Your pastor can pick these up, practice the melodies with encouragement from you, and implement them over a few weeks.

    It's very helpful for the priest to sing the very first words of the Mass ("In the name of the Father...") -- it gets the people's attention, and helps them to shift out of their everyday thoughts and focus on the sacred event that is now underway. Priests often think that they can get people ready for prayer by giving an introductory talk, but merely chanting the first words of the Mass accomplishes it so simply.
    Thanked by 4Liam Mark M. teachermom24 ryand
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    Interesting and very helpful. . . thank you!

    I noted from paragraph 23:

    Whenever the choir also includes women, it should be placed outside the sanctuary (presbyterium).

    What does this mean?
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    It means if there are women in the choir they should be in the choir loft, not in the sanctuary. Although I'm not sure if that still holds since we now have female altar servers, lectors and Extra-ordinary ministers.

    Kathy...the very fact that you care and are trying to learn tells me that your parish has a good choir director. Don't ever let someone make you feel less than because you don't have formal training. Remember...an amateur is someone who does something for the love of it. Amateurs often bring a commitment and a passion to the table that many professionals have either lost or never had.
    Thanked by 2WiesOrganista Jenny
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    The GIRM no longer distinguishes the sex of choir members in terms of placement, but provides this instruction:

    "312. The choir should be positioned with respect to the design of each church so as to make clearly evident its character as a part of the gathered community of the faithful fulfilling a specific function. The location should also assist the choir to exercise its function more easily and conveniently allow each choir member full, sacramental participation in the Mass."

    The implication is that the choir should not be in the presbyterium regardless of whether it is all male or mixed or all female. A schola consisting entirely of real clerics (that is, deacons, priests, bishops) at a conventual or similar Mass would probably be a common-sense but unwritten exception.

    Thanked by 1Wendi
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    I am not a fan of Communion hymns as such. Psalms, yes; propers, too. Probably best practice would be the proper communion antiphon (starting while the celebrant receives communion - the rubrics are clear that it's not supposed to be silence at that point) followed by a responsorial psalm (psalms 34 (antiphon: Taste and see the goodness of the Lord), 78 (antiphon: The Lord gave them bread from heaven) and 84 (antiphon: You open your hand and fill every creature with your kindness*) are good places to start, and you could pull suitable redactions of those from the Lectionary) as the regulars in the congregation just sing the antiphon and less dependent on the music once exposed regularly to them. Once firmly in the repertoire, you could rotate the psalm on a weekly basis.

    I don't have a choice about whether or not to have a communion hymn, but we can keep if after all have received Holy Communion. I would like to do as you suggested above, but where can I find the antiphons in English? I'm only finding Latin on the literature page. Neither I nor the congregation are ready for Latin and Gregorian Chant at this point. (Maybe I can find a class on YouTube?! ha! ha! just kidding--I did print off the Gregorian Chant instruction booklet from the literature page but need time to study). The only Latin we use, as I mentioned in Advent and Lent, is in the Latin Chant Mass in the back of the Music Issue. So if I had something in English or at least with modern music notation, I think I could go with it.

    Thank you all for your help and patience!!

    Kathy
  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    Simple English Propers - available online in PDF and from Amazon, etc. I started doing the Communion 4 weeks ago, by myself a cappella, as the priest receives. I sing verses as needed until I figure it's time to start the hymn. The parish hadn't heard chant in over 50 years and they are loving it.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    The pdf file is on this page. There are practice videos too.

    http://musicasacra.com/?s=Simple+English+Propers

    Here's a link to CCwatershed, they have the Propers in Latin along with practice videos. Good for study.

    http://www.ccwatershed.org/liturgy/daily/
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    BTW - the square notes really aren't that hard once you learn how to find a way to get the "beginning" note right that works for you. Many great resources on this site, et al, for that.

    I'm certain I have seen other English antiphons with modern notation, I just can't remember where. SEP is very user-friendly and I like it for that reason.

    Another suggestion is to choose 1 or 2 "common" tones and set the antiphons (that are now in the Missalettes and Breaking Bread) to those tones. I'm thinking of doing that when choir is back in season. I did that with much success at a recent church dedication where to my surprise (or not), I could not find musical settings of the antiphons and Psalms actually required (as the first option anyway) in the Rite of Dedication.
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    WiesOrganista,

    If you would like to include accompaniment to the SEP chants, check this out:
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/6062/sep-organchoral-accompaniments#Item_321
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    I have been using the SEP for the better part of a year. As I do not read music, I have found the YouTube tutorials most helpful.

    Teachermom, have you tried the ICEL chants? These are quite easy and are the default chants found in the Roman Missal. CMAA and the Corpus Christi Watershed Project have great tutorials on YouTube.

    WiseOrganista, I chant the SEPs by myself at my dad's parish. I chant the Introit and the Communion Antiphons.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Two words - Richard Rice. You might try the Simple Choral Gradual by him. It states, "Settings for Mixed Choir of the Entrance, Offertory, and Communion Antiphons
    for Sundays and Solemnities of the Church Year." They couldn't be any easier to sing. I use his communion antiphons every Sunday, and sometimes the verses, as well. During the summer, when my choir only practices once a month, they can pick these up and sing them at sight.
    Thanked by 1teachermom24
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    I think I'm starting to get this. We did use a couple of Richard Rice's pieces for the Easter Vigil. This I can do!

    Kathy
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • Abbot Jonathan CoelAbbot Jonathan Coel
    Posts: 167
    33. "Choir and ensemble members may dress in albs or choir robes, but always in clean, presentable, and modest clothing. Cassock and surplice, being clerical attire, are not recommended as choir vesture."

    The USCCB may not have it right when making this statement as in other statements. They may want to take a very close look at the choir that sings at the Vatican and Westminster Cathedral – London for examples. Both are dressed in traditional cassock and surplice. This dress IS the norm and has been for centuries, just like the Propers and sacred traditional polyphony is the norm for music in the Church.

    And cgz is absolutely correct the ultimate and primary role of any choir is to "Worship God through music and to raise the hearts and minds of the assembled faithful to that same purpose. Everything else is extra. Some of the rest is distractively extraneous."
    Thanked by 2jward CHGiffen
  • RachelR
    Posts: 41
    Teachermom, are you by any chance in the Diocese of Nashville? I was wondering because we just got a new priest at our parish too on July 1 with widespread reassignments across the area, and our schola (only 4.5 months old) seems to have his support, Deo Gratias! I pray for more people and I will pray that you find more people, too! God be with you every step in your holy mission! :)
  • rmerkel
    Posts: 15
    cgz said:

    "Surely the purpose of a choir is to do two things:

    1) To worship God through music
    2) To raise the hearts and minds of the assembled faithful to that same purpose."

    I would argue 2 comes first and is the cause of 1. The choirs private prayers are secondary to their liturgical role in raising the souls of the congregation already raised by the liturgy. The worship in 1/ comes from these "heightened" prayers from the congregation and ministers, not from the music which is only the catalyst here to achieve that.
    Thanked by 1teachermom24
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    Rachel,

    We are in the Diocese of Memphis, though our parish is geographically closer to Nashville. I know both Nashville and Memphis have some wonderful, large Catholic parishes but between the cities, which is where we sit, it is beautifully rural but minimally Catholic.

    Our new priest came from the cathedral in Memphis. He is young and full of energy, with a devotion to the Sacred Heart. I think we'll be moving in a good direction. My son, the organist, and I will meet with him next Monday to go over choir music and get the ball the rolling for the new choir season.

    Kathy
  • WiesOrganista
    Posts: 128
    Abbot Jon - I have seen photographs various Protestant choirs and the Anglican choir of Westminster Abbey at the Vatican in cassock and surplice, but not a Roman Catholic choir. Since "Sing to the Lord" is an advisory document (not formally approved by the Holy See), does anybody know if RC choirs (other than clerics, in choir) have ever been directed as to what their dress should be?
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    @WiesOrganista: Ever looked on the Sistine Chapel (the choir, not the building)? They always vest in purple cassock an surplice. On the one occasion when the choir of Westminster Abbey sang at St Peters it seems both were vested the same way. There are also various recent examples of other choirs, such as the choir of Mainz Cathedral or Regensburg cathedral.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    GIRM and USCCB are merely trying to explain away the difference between what the church policy has always been and what is actually happening in parishes. What is written in the GIRM and what the USCCB have said.

    Things would be better if the restriction against having mixed choirs were put back into effect....then directors that wanted to sing polyphony with men's voices would have to train boys to sing. This was not an uncommon practice 50 years ago. Priests came out of the altar boy program and the boy's choir.

    This provided music for one Mass and a women's choir often sang at another Mass....beats the heck out of men and women singing at one mass and all the other masses being led by an arm-waving cantor/cantoress.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    rmerkel thinks I have the order backwards, but I don't. If the choir first concentrates on the congregation, it won't ever focus on God properly. If it puts first things first it remembers that it, too, is there to worship God, both individually and corporately. Just as love of neighbor flows from love of God, and the commandments express our duties to God first, so also the purpose of a choir and the music it sings must be properly oriented.

    Chris
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  • JennyH
    Posts: 106
    The Second Vatican Council specifically ordered that choirs be maintained in Churches. I can search and look up the exact quote.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Or rather than singing polyphony every week, just have the chanted propers, and bring the men's choir and the women's choir together for very special feast days.

    I love the idea of a men's Schola at one Mass and the women's Schola at another. Or depending on the Mass schedule in a smaller parish, have the men and women sing on alternate weeks.

    Something along the lines of degrees of solemnity.

    Considering the modern view that singing is not a boy thing, that approach might bear more immediate fruit in some areas.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • teachermom24
    Posts: 327
    I need a little more help. I'm needing to write up an announcement of the new choir season for our parish bulletin. I want to include something of the purpose of the choir that will speak to the reader of the beauty, dignity and truth of sacred music that we will strive to bring to the Mass.

    Kathy
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I don't think that's a good approach. People will see it as what it is: ideological propaganda. Try to use something more inclusive. I always did something very basic: "If you like to sing and have Thursday nights open, consider the choir!"

    See my remarks above on the three purposes of choir. I'd often incorporate those into announcements: "(1) The choir performs an important ministry in the liturgy by enriching it with great music. No experience is necessary, and no skill other than the ability to follow directions and a free Thursday evening. (2) This is a valuable opportunity to improve your own musicianship and learn about the liturgy. (3) And we always have a good time with a great group of people."

    As opposed to: "Come sing the music that I want you to sing!"
    Thanked by 3Liam teachermom24 ryand
  • rmerkel
    Posts: 15
    cgz wrote:

    "rmerkel thinks I have the order backwards, but I don't. If the choir first concentrates on the congregation, it won't ever focus on God properly."

    I think you misunderstand my point. I was not suggesting the choir focus on the congregation, but that the worship of God comes from the faithful and ministers - the choir of course contribute to this however. For example, if a choir favoured a particular style of singing chant, yet the congregation were not comfortable with it and felt an alternative approach e.g. old Solesmes helped them pray the Mass better (and, especially take part in the singing of the Ordinary) then the choir would be bound to put the congregation first, and not their own private preferences i.e. their liturgical function has to come first.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Rmerkel:

    No, I didn't misunderstand you, although I didn't have the specific method of chant in mind when I proposed my order. If the choir regulates its conduct based on what the congregation "wants", then when the congregation wants "On Eagle's wings" or " Amazing Grace", because these help them worship well, the choir is bound to accept such a nonsensical idea. The first duty is to God, and to the received liturgy of the Church, not to the people. This is NOT some misguided elitism, but only a recognition of the First Commandment's most obvious application. You appear to define the liturgical function in terms of the people, which doesn't make any sense: the Mass is the worship of God, not a didactic exercise. Does it have educative gestures and music? Of course. Are those gestures and music up to the congregation to decide? OF course not.

    If it is a question of singing the Introit where the communion antiphon belongs, and vice versa, this is clearly wrong. If it is a question of polyphonic Mass settings or chant ordinaries, chant has pride of place, because of the instructions of His Holiness, not because of some consultation of the people. Most priests will encourage the use of polyphony, not to the exclusion of chant obviously, because it makes the already beautiful liturgy even more beautiful, and because Holy Mother Church has promoted polyphony for generations.
    Thanked by 1teachermom24
  • rmerkel
    Posts: 15
    cgz:

    You again misunderstand - I would ask that your read my posts carefully before replying. I'm not suggesting one chooses music to please the people as their number one priority - you unfortunately have taken an extreme and rather defensive position here. I'm simply suggesting the liturgical/musical levels of appreciation of a congregation do play a part here when the choir decide (with their pastor) what music to sing - I agree that music should come from all the allowed options the Church provides, but there is great, even enormous, diversity in those options - if the choir choose music (say a Langlais Mass written for liturgical use ) which they may love, this may only confuse and bewilder the congregation - and in that case, we're really missing the point altogether of why we even sing at Mass.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    RMerkel,

    "...this may only confuse and bewilder the congregation -- and in that case, we're really missing the point altogether of why we even sing at Mass."

    Perhaps we need some specific examples of how I'm misunderstanding what you've written. It seems to me clear enough that the congregation is the SECOND consideration on why we sing the Mass, unless you mean "sing AT Mass", that is, not sing Holy Mass, but make hymns or whatever beyond (or in place of) what is appointed by Holy Mother Church. It seems equally clear to me that you intend the congregation to be the FIRST consideration. I'm not taking some "extreme" or "rather defensive position".

    I'll try to put some propositions on deck, and see which ones you disagree with. You can do likewise, if you're so inclined.

    1) Mass is the Worship of God.
    2) The normative (in the sense of "this should be normal") Mass is the High Mass, not the Low Mass.
    3) Music is not an extra to Mass, but an adornment. The distinction I intend is this: since Mass is properly sung, Music should be there, but the purpose of music is to make even more beautiful that which is already "the most wonderful thing this side of heaven."
    4) Choirs should train according to the mind of the Church: gregorian chant, ordinaries, propers. Motets are by no means forbidden, but must be secondary to the prescribed texts. In this vein, if we skip the Communion antiphon so we can sing "We are one in the Spirit", we've clearly missed the point on so many levels that it's hard to count them all.
    5) Hymns (unless you mean Adoro te, Stabat Mater and others which have a prescribed use in the liturgy) are not essential to the liturgy.
    6) Pleasing the people (at any level) except as it relates to presenting beautifully what the Church has assigned to us as laymen is a non-starter. Father doesn't preach on what the people WANT to hear, but on what they NEED to hear. That's his judgment. In the same vein, musicians sing what the Church requires, and then add that which is in harmony with this requirement. The people aren't consulted by necessity or even by right.
    7) If we're choosing which setting of the O Salutaris Hostia to sing for Exposition (a chant, a polyphonic setting, or a hymn, for example), then the question of which can most effectively raise the hearts and minds of priest and people to God becomes a relevant one, since the prescribed text will be sung. The decision is of the choir director, under the authority of the priest.

    God bless,

    Chris
    Thanked by 2teachermom24 Chris Allen
  • rmerkel
    Posts: 15
    cgz:

    This is my last statement on this matter.

    I agree with your propositions in principle, even though I feel they veer towards a overly strict, jurisdictional approach to music in the liturgy. We can argue all day at how to faithfully interpret church documents on music - the broad blueprint of what is required is reasonably clear, but there is also much elasticitiy there on how to interpret aspects of them eg what criteria to choose, how XYZ music measures up to that criteria, and then how to weight that criteria amongst many competing issues in forming a decision. Difficulties are asked to be referred to the local Bishop to resolve etc However, the sole intepreter of these documents is of course the Holy Father - we must always look to him for guidance here in helping us to nagivate the "musical mind" of the Church. I'm reminded of one musician who criticised Haydn's Harmoniemesse at the Papal Mass for Pentecost a year or so back, claiming the Haydn was full of "secular, operatic" motives etc and was contrary to the Church's teachings on sacred music. They had interpreted Church encyclicals on music in a particular way and may even have been able to construct a strong case - except for one thing - the Pope is the sole interpreter of these documents, and he had spoken, and on one of the greatest feasts of the liturgical year.


    If you're confusing and bewildering the congegation, you're not using music effectively in the Mass - period. The congregation are being distracted from the Mass, so key conditions on the purpose of sacred music such as "edication and sanctification of the faithful" are just not being realized. The worship of God that you refer to comes from the people praying the Mass - surely as a point of common sense, if they're being diverted from doing that by novelties from the choir (or poor choice of music) and even if both are within the Church's model for sacred music, then something is clearly amiss. Your approach seems to suggest we should blame the congregation for their lack of musical appreciation/liturgical formation etc and absolve the choir of any obligations here to the community that they sing for - I respectfully submit this is not a model of best practice and will win few hearts and minds. All music is a compromise, and that's precisely what's needed here - to reach a point where both the Church's wishes are being respected, and the congregation's praying of the Mass enhanced. In some communities, this may be singing the Cum Jubilio Mass, Victoria Motets, traditonal chant Propers in Latin - in others it may be one of the many new Mass Ordinary settings for the new translation (such as in the V2 Hymnal), Simple English Propers etc - the formula of what to choose will change and should be optimised for the needs of each and every community - I'm sorry to say it again, and we'll have to agree to disagree, but the community's abilities and input is actually important here in the final analysis.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I agree, rmerkel. I am all for good music in the liturgy, In fact, I want to use the best that my choir and congregation are capable of. However, music can become an idol, just like anything else. I don't worship music. Music is a tool, although often beautiful, but still a tool.
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