Responsorial Dilema (once again)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I am being asked to use this Psalm setting for a wedding. According the GIRM (par. 61) it is very difficult to determine whether it is licit or not. Note the last sentence of the paragraph which cancels out all the previous wanderings about trying to justify 'other settings'. Very confusing.

    Thoughts?

    _________
    The Responsorial Psalm
    61. After the First Reading follows the Responsorial Psalm, which is an
    integral part of the Liturgy of the Word and which has great liturgical and
    pastoral importance, since it fosters meditation on the Word of God.
    The Responsorial Psalm should correspond to each reading and
    should usually be taken from the Lectionary.
    It is preferable for the Responsorial Psalm to be sung, at least as far
    as the people’s response is concerned. Hence the psalmist, or cantor of the
    Psalm, sings the Psalm verses at the ambo or another suitable place, while
    the whole congregation sits and listens, normally taking part by means of
    the response, except when the Psalm is sung straight through, that is,
    without a response. However, in order that the people may be able to sing
    the Psalm response more easily, texts of some responses and Psalms have
    been chosen for the different times of the year or for the different categories
    of Saints. These may be used instead of the text corresponding to the
    reading whenever the Psalm is sung. If the Psalm cannot be sung, then it
    should be recited in a way that is particularly suited to fostering meditation
    on the Word of God.
    In the Dioceses of the United States of America, instead of the Psalm
    assigned in the Lectionary, there may be sung either the Responsorial
    Gradual from the Graduale Romanum, or the Responsorial Psalm or the
    Alleluia Psalm from the Graduale Simplex, as described in these books, or an
    antiphon and Psalm from another collection of Psalms and antiphons,
    including Psalms arranged in metrical form, providing that they have been
    approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. Songs or
    hymns may not be used in place of the Responsorial Psalm.


    Thanked by 1Erika
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    To my knowledge, Spirit and Song does not carry any approval as a subsitution for the regular psalms. Furthermore, the way the particular piece is set is not conducive for serving as a responsorial psalm.

    The Rite provides for several options insofar as the responsorial psalm is concerned. If the couple feels that strongly about the piece in question, maybe they could use it as the recessional.
  • marajoymarajoy
    Posts: 781
    I don't have access to a lectionary ATM (and am feeling too lazy to look for one,) so is the issue the translation? or is it lectionary-correct?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    credit reads as such:

    The English translation of the refrain text from Lectionary for Mass © 1969, 1981, International Committee on English in the Liturgy, Inc. (ICEL) All rights reserved. Used with permission. Music and verses text © 1997, 1998. Steve Angrisano and Thomas N. Tomaszek. Published by OCP Publications. All rights reserved.

    I don't see how we (or individuals going through a publisher) can write paraphrased text and then use it at the RP. Anyone could change anything, wouldn't you think?
  • Maureen
    Posts: 675
    Well, you could always turn this setting into a Bach-like arrangement, or sing it a capella in a chant arrangement. :) There's not much melody there, so honestly you could turn it into anything.

    And that being said, you could probably substitute the actual psalm words without anybody noticing, also. (Especially if the singer sings it in a non-pop way.) If you make it multi-part or do a round, you can definitely get away with changing them.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    tnx all... i think the cantor is flying in from somewhere and she will be singing the piece as composed. so no changing anything at this point... will just be joining into the festivities as the accompanist.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    Unfortunate as this advice may be, I recommend just doing it (provided the pastor approved it), cashing the paycheck, and living to fight another day.
    Thanked by 4marajoy Andrew Motyka CharlesW Paul_D
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    I say stand up for the truth and follow St. Theodore's advice instead:
    What profit does a man gain in this life if he should lose his own soul and turn against the faith and holy tradition?

    (Martyrs and Witnesses of the Faith had also appeared during the Iconomachy era, from among the orthodox laity. Saint Theodore the Studite in his letter to a persecuted official, the patrician Irene, had consoled her and encouraged her with the following words: )

    "Who of the confessors doesn't know that you are co-confessing? Where has it not been heard that there is a senator among the martyrs? The orders of Monks have admired you and you have been praised by the congregations of the laity. But of what value is that? The very orders of angels and saints have been delighted thanks to you. And do not think that my words are flattery. Look, o martyr of Christ, how much you have been honoured, how much you have been elevated; compare clay and gold for me: that is how much greater and how much more than the earthly rank that you abandoned is the heavenly rank that has now been bestowed upon you by God - that is, to be called a martyr of Christ, and confessor of the truth."

    "For this, I would remind you no not deviate from that objection - you, who have clung to the immovable rock of Orthodoxy - nor to become easily thrown and of a double mind on account of the falls (into heresy) by either laypeople or monastics and all those who think they are something, or anyone in general. They are pseudo-brethren, pseudo-apostles, who have an education of piety but have denied its power (2 Tim.3:5). Many wiseacres and "seemingly hierarchic" and "seemingly saintly" persons have been defeated in older generations; on the contrary, few and truly wise people, who have lived with a fear of God, have shone forth as lights in the world, because the beginning of wisdom is for one to have an awe of God (Psalms 110:10) even though they have not been regarded as important personages, because man looks upon the face but God examines the heart"23.

    Be one of those few truly wise people, Francis, do the right thing.

    Praying for you!

    Christopher
  • benedictgal
    Posts: 798
    Chris, I think that the same advice should also apply to the priest in charge of this situation. Sadly, not a few of them will cave into the desires of brides and grooms who know little or next to nothing about the Church's rituals. This is where he or the music director need to step in and gently catechize these folks. OCP does not write the rituals; the Church does.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    FWIW, I see the last sentence as saying that you can't use "Amazing Grace" in place of the psalm. I don't think it's referring to paraphrases.

    I've had to say no to things like pop songs as the psalm before. This at least follows the psalm text. It's not a good setting at all, but I'd just do it.
  • Paul_D
    Posts: 133
    I was going to go to bat for the “just do it” side of the debate, ... until I listened to the online sample. It’s beyond lame, to put it mildly. It’s beneath the dignity of the liturgy, and I doubt if it can be redeemed in a contrived traditional setting. It will draw attention to itself and away from the gospel which follows. Unless (God forbid) the wedding has an overall “pop” music aesthetic that will at least minimize the contrast (remember I said, God forbid), it will stick out like a sore thumb, especially with a soloist parachuted it for extra “pizzazz”. Perhaps you can convince the bride that in the respectful opinion of the musicians you have consulted, people are going to be saying, “nice wedding, shame about the psalm.” “It was fine until the soloist made everybody hear how great she is.”
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    well people, the whole liturgy is in the same style. i guess i am going to have to swallow this one.

    chris... i almost always am speaking out for what's authentic, and it puts me in a difficult place at times, but i guess that is our lot this day and age.

    thanks for your input all.

    painfully yours,

    fk
  • SamuelDorlaque
    Posts: 318
    I'm fortunate enough to work for a Pastor who says we sing the proper Gradual or the alternative Responsorial Psalms exactly as translated in the Lectionary, just as we do for the other readings. He gave me a great coffee mug- "Say the Black and do the Red."
    Thanked by 2Jeffrey Quick noel jones, aago
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    only if we had mug clergy like that!
  • srmarieemmanuel
    Posts: 1
    Francis, Maybe you could call attention to the very link you provided and point out that it says "Parts not approved for liturgical use after 11/26/11". Then, if they are concerned enough to ask for options, you could direct them to some liturgically appropriate music. Be assured of my prayers. I don't know what I would do if I were forced to sing music like that at a Mass! Thankfully, I have a pastor that is committed to good liturgy.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    i checked about the parts. i thought the same thing.

    it is a cd which has the previous english settings of the mass and is not referring to the song in question.

    that is why, however, i avoid composing masses in english and much prefer latin. they will never go out of date on account of translation.
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    money makes the world go 'round .. world go round...
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    ...world go round...

    money makes the world go round,

    but heaven makes it sing.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    So the couple can also then write their own vows, paraphrasing away, as this web article suggests?

    You can take a traditional vow and remove parts of it, insert your own unique style and make it fit perfect for you and your spouse-to-be! Below are some sample wedding vows.

    Grooms Funny Wedding Vow Example:

    I, insert Groom's name, take you insert Bride's name, to be my wife, to have and to hold from this day forward, to run out and get ice cream for you in the middle of the night, to always put the toilet seat down when I'm done, to pick up my dirty socks everyday, and to occasionally miss a football game when we have something else to do; this I promise you from this day forward until death do us part.

    Brides Funny Wedding Vows Example:

    I, insert Bride's name, take you insert Groom's name, to be my husband, to have and to hold from this day forward, to let you watch your favorite football games without me complaining, to limit my shoe purchases to 8 a year (ok maybe 5), to not roll my eyes at you when you talk about fishing and to love and to cherish you; from this day forward until death do us part.

    Your guests will love the humor of it if they really know the two of you and your vows will have more meaning for each of you.

    When Father rolls his eyes after you say this, you roll your eyes right along with him and tell him, "Father, the Psalms are the Word of God, translated very carefully by theologians with greater minds than mine....how can we enter into God's house and not sing His words?"

    The !@#$ has to stop.

    Otherwise we are joining the protestants....protesting against honoring the revealed word of god....
    Thanked by 3CindyCecilia Chris Allen E_A_Fulhorst
  • Chris_McAvoyChris_McAvoy
    Posts: 389
    What would be worse in my opinion is if it was a funeral.
    One of my worst experiences in life was in a uniquely innovative church funeral.
    Thats where I draw the line.

    If the church people can not honour and pray for their dead properly..what use is there ... draw your own conclusions. They need to handle the beginning and ending of life properly above all else. A wedding is the inbetween stage.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    money makes the world go round

    Or as I always say,
    The church's one foundation
    is gifts of checks and cash...
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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