Praying in the name of Mary?
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    Just thought I'd open a little hot button issue here:

    I was using the Universalis website for the Liturgy of the Hours, I think on the bus--or rather, using it to know what the verses were and then reading them in a translation I trust. The only problem comes with the prayers, which are not Scripture. The other day, they had the response as "we pray in the name of Mary," which I am not sure that I have ever seen. I checked the Latin, and it was along the lines of "attend to the prayers of Mary, and hear our prayers," which seems fine. I did a little Googling, and found such a mix of things that it was useless. (Protestants going on about praying to saints, mainly.) But there was something saying we should always pray in the precious names of Jesus and Mary.

    I cannot believe this is licit. Anyone familiar with this practice?

    Speaking of which, does anyone know who puts up the Universalis.com site? Aside from this, it has seemed fine. It is certainly a better source of old hymns than the official LoH in English, but the prayer translations vary between strict and "dynamic equivalence," and we all know what that means.

    Kenneth
    Thanked by 1PurpleSquirrel
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    We emphatically do not pray in anyone's name but that of Jesus, Who is our only Mediator and Advocate, as St Paul saith.
    We do not at all pray in the name of the BVM or any other saints or angels.

    1)We pray in Jesus' name.
    2)We ask the saints (including our Lord's Mother) to intercede for us, but this is in no wise to be construed as praying to God in their names. This is heresy. We ask St Paul to pray for us to God. We DO NOT pray to God in St Paul's name -- only JESUS'!

    A related matter about which there is often confusion is that, while venerating them, as is appropriate, we do not worship them - ever. There is considerable confusion about this as large numbers of the Hispanic community make it quite clear that they worship our Lady of Guadaloupe as a goddess. More heresy! And no one ever seems to set them straight - or straighten them out!
    Thanked by 4PurpleSquirrel ryand marajoy E_A_Fulhorst
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    There is room in the Catholic tradition for devotion to the name of Mary, for invoking her intercession through her name, but a formula such as Kenneth cites sounds like a real aberration. Can you post a link to an example?
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I think language differences sometimes play into this. In talking with a lady from China, it was clear that what she meant by "worship" was what we would mean by using "honor." There is a difference between the honor we would give a saint, and the adoration that belongs to God alone. "Worship" tends to mean "adore" in English, at least in the way that most of us use the term. I'm not sure that difference is clear when going from another language to English.
    Thanked by 1E_A_Fulhorst
  • Presentandaccounted4
    Posts: 3
    Praying in Jesus' name but invoking the saints reminds me of a story . . .

    Why God Gave Us Saints (I love this story) by L. Enchelmayer Schmidt

    God realised early on our limitaions as humans, and he could see there weren't many who automatically had it in them to follow his commandments and turn to him in prayer, as he'd originally hoped..
    "Hm." He began, "This just isn't working, so I must concede that my humans need more. They aren't walking with me, as I'd hoped! They need to turn to ME!"

    So one day he let one of them invent the mirror, thinking that they'd see their hopeless self-images and turn to him for help in their daily lives. But it didn't work! They saw instead their own beauty and became even more self-centered and greedy. Wars and feuds were waged and the human race was headed for doom. When it came to turning to their maker for guidance and help, they kept going their own way.

    So God turned to his angels, but even though their help was limited, one of them, the littlest angel, said, "Look, it's like this, most of them don't know HOW to relate to you directly. You've limited them, you see...."

    "Nonsense!" said God. "Last year I gave them the harvest of the century, and I must say I was very flattered by all the sacrifices they left on the altar! But in time they forget again, and left on their own they just make a total mess of all the wonderful things I've given them! Only a very few lead practically flawless lives. And even then they are not looked up to but only made fun of by their own kind! Take Jesus! My ultimate sacrifice! They pray in His Name, and you’d think that would be the answer for all ill and suffering! But, no! No, since they can't do it on their own or with His help, I may as well destroy the lot of them!"

    The littlest angel offered again, "Sir, that's only human nature for you, so work with that! BECAUSE they do look to each other they don't see you! Evolve as they will, they will always best be able to relate to one of their own! So, they need to see YOU in THEMSELVES! You were on the right track with last year's mirror-concept, only you need to take it further: You might want to consider letting them invoke the power of those few near-perfect of the race who have gone on, those who have lived and died as best they could but who have performed a holy miracle while they were alive."

    "The angel continued, "See, it's like being invited as a guest at an elaborately set table, a banquet, where there are lots of appetite invoking tools, polished eating implements and flowers and candles. These things help the guest to enjoy the food better! The host knew full well that his guests wouldn't appreciate on their own all the work he'd gone to! But, when the guests, in their best clothing, can see all the preparation promising them a feast, then they rise to their best behaviour and share their food with each other!

    Of course for the sake of nourishment you don't need a fancy banquet, and food can always be eaten simply, or even gobbled down on the run.
    On the other hand a well-laid table, with all it's tools serve to help the the guest realise that someone really cared enough to bring meal partaking to a higher level. And suddenly they relate better to each other, showing their best sides, passing the food along -- knowing there's enough for everybody! YOU NEED TO LAY A MORE ELABORATE TABLE, you need to give them Saints! And then every day can be a feast."

    God listened to his angel, and from then on he gave us Saints to intercede for us, since we can't with our limited finite powers tackle life in the best way.
  • rob
    Posts: 148

    I understand the concern, but personally I'd be much less emphatic in expressing it than M. Jackson Osborn.

    As noted by Chonak, there's a solid tradition underlying the invocation of the Holy Name of Mary (which as a feast, if I recall correctly, predates even the Holy Name of Jesus, in the universal calendar).

    Perhaps St. Alphonsus de Ligouri's words on the power of her name would suffice:
    http://www.themostholyrosary.com/appendix8.htm

    I'd suggest the greater concern should lie in a general neglect of the devotion, rather than in a hypothetical error which might arise in those souls who are otherwise properly inclined to observe it; and who, might nonetheless, be unduly affected by error arising from an unfelicitous translation; and, furthermore, be without adequate assistance -- by means natural or supernatural -- to combat the effect of ther error.

  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    ROB -
    I was stating the true belief of the Church. Being emphatic was neither intended nor needed in simply stating the truth. If I pray to God in the name of Mary herself, or St Paul or anyone other than Jesus, I blaspheme: To pray to God in the name of a created being is heresy and blasphemy, no matter who it is, even the BVM. Now, I may indeed invoke a saint's help or ask him or her to pray for me to God for a given end, but no one asks such things of saints by virtue of their own (non-inherent!) powers, which, no matter how glorious they are, are the result of God working through them. If this is, as you call it, 'emphatic', it needs to be because countless Catholics are very poorly enlightened in these matters. As I mentioned above, one doesn't have to travel far in the Hispanic community to find OLG literally worshipped as a Goddess. And, there are not uncommon parallels amongst other groups. God alone is holy, he alone is worshipped, and he is prayed to only in the name of his Son, the God-Man Jesus.
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    Fair enough, although it has never been my own experience. The Marian devotions I'm familiar with are all quite clear on the distinction between Creator and creature, since it is this distinction which gives rise to the BVM's favored place.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Just to close the loop with Kenneth's original question, this sounds like a lousy translation into English. It would be interesting to get a reference to that prayer, so that I could find out how the UK edition of the Office translated it.
    Thanked by 1amindthatsuits
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Good example of why translators need to be:
    -as literal as possible
    -well-versed in orthodoxy
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen amindthatsuits
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