when to use polyphonic Mass ordinaries?
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    Dear friends of beautiful church music:

    I read in the GIRM that the Ordinary of the Mass is to be participated in by the people, with the possible exception of the Gloria, which "may be sung by choir alone" (para. 53). But I read in Dr. Mahrt's fine book, The Musical Shape of the Liturgy, that Renaissance polyphonic settings are "particularly appropriate" for liturgy and ought to be used in churches with the resources to sing them regularly (pp. 32-33). I don't mean to pit Mahrt vs. GIRM, but how can polyphonic Ordinaries be appropriate when the congregation by definition doesn't participate in them? Or am I giving the GIRM too "literalist" a reading? Are choral polyphonic Ordinaries, in fact, acceptable in Ordinary Form liturgies?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    It depends. I would view it in terms of a movie rather than photo by photo. If the people regularly are given the opportunity to join, then periodic use of polyphonic settings would not substantially alter the overall compliance, as it were.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Thorny question and again we struggle with the GIRM.
    In a nutshell, a polyphonic Mass setting is appropriate at anytime for the greater glory of God. This is famously stated in Sacrosanctum Concilium as well as the GIRM itself. It is also restated by Bl. John Paul II in 2003.
    Whether or not it is the best idea with your Parish is another question. Further to that, when to use one must certainly be a matter of prudence.
    The problem (manufactured problem in my mind) is that we have confused the term participation. Actual vs Active. Whether I am right or wrong on the issue. We are very far from convincing people not to be upset if they can't do stuff at Mass.
    So when you pick a Feast or Sunday to do a polyphonic setting of the Mass. Do so with care and preparation not just of the choir, but the people as well.

    I would add too, and say that chant ordinaries (in Latin) ought not to sit on the pine for too long.
    If we are always polyphonic, or vernacular for that matter, we are still making some of the mistakes we made pre-council and post council GIRM warfare.

    Peter
  • I agree with LIam.
    It seems to me that, particularly if one is blessed with an appreciative congregation and clergy, one could and should sing polyphonic masses whenever one pleases so long as they do not become the norm and altogether replace 'congregational' settings.
    And, as long as we have bishops and priests who presume to forbid things that are blessed and enjoined by the Vatican council and successive popes, why should we feel that we must be holden to the 'letter of the law' in GIRM. (Perhaps there is a 'spirit of GIRM' which would yield some lee-way for 'pastoral considerations'?).
  • M. Jackson and Liam,
    I heartily agree.

    CGM et al
    It seems we are more legalistic now than ever. Instead of a real immersion in the Roman Rite and true study and understanding of it, spiritually, historically and so on, we end up treating it like an operation with an operations manual (the GIRM). I'm all for rubrics, but I think we can see that it is not so easy to take up the manual without first understanding the language it is written in. (I mean to be metaphorical, not literal about the language)
    Be assured CGM, that doing a polyphonic setting is always in continuity with the Church. That she has loved and treasured polyphony and that if we could start to think of the immensity of God, what heights some polyphony could help us get to.


    Peter
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I believe that Mahrt has on many occasions stated that on the two or so Sundays or Feasts that are traditionally consigned polyphonic Masses, that diverse parishioners make a point of remarking about their appreciation for BOTH of the Catholic idiioms the augmentation of polyphony to chant those occasions provide.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    As a further reinforcement here, considering that the documents praise polyphony almost on the level of gregorian chant (GIRM no. 41, SC no. 116, etc...), it would be odd to argue that the ordinary could not be sung in polyphony, even if it appears that's what the GIRM wants.
  • Mark M.Mark M.
    Posts: 632
    I'd like to refer you to this post from last month over at the Café (see my initial query in the combox — very similar to what you asked here — and the answers that follow from Jeffrey T. and others).
    Thanked by 1CGM
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    Thanks to all who have replied thus far, and thanks, Mark, for your note referring to your earlier post. There is no question about the beauty, or the liturgical origins, of polyphonic settings of the Ordinary. However, Jeffrey Tucker raises good points about the structure of the Ordinary Form and the challenges that arise from that in respect to polyphonic Mass settings, which were, after all, written for an earlier and different form of the rite. This echoes your original quote from Dr. Mahrt, that "these problems will be addressed in a later article." (Did he ever write that article?) The thing that I began this thread with was a quote of his from the mid-1970's; the quote you mention is from just a year ago and is probably a better representation of what he thinks now.

    It seems incredible that there should not be a definitive answer to this - after all, the "new" liturgy has been around for 40 years now. But maybe there isn't! I refer to the GIRM because it seems that the official "book of instruction" on how to celebrate the rite ought to be the most binding word on, well, how to celebrate the rite.

    But I'm open to being schooled more...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I wouldn't use polyphony for a regularly scheduled Sunday mass. However, those settings work well for special events, such as priest anniversary masses, and other celebrations. My congregation(s) seem to understand that it is OK to just listen and enjoy at those events.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I can assure you... they sing polyphony in heaven's liturgies...

    And PMulholand is spot on with this one:

    "The problem (manufactured problem in my mind) is that we have confused the term participation. Actual vs Active."

    The Latin phrase is Actuoso Participatio. Do a google on that one and you will find some very interesting discussion.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Yes, Francis. But they have better training and direction. LOL
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    I have the extreme good fortune of heading a music program where the professional choir is capable of singing different polyphonic ordinaries each week, and the pastor would support their use. So my question is really, what does the liturgy require?

    I know the whole actuoso participatio thing - I've brought it up with my pastor in relation to the non-big-choir Masses, where I've been introducing the SEP (with a wee choir of me, my wife, and two of my kids) and he wants me to go back to hymns. As Jeffrey Tucker, Adam Wood, and others have said, the template seems to be that the Ordinary is for the people, and the Propers are for the choir. If this is normative for the Ordinary Form, then just using polyphonic settings of the Ordinary for special feasts seems appropriate, since the rest of the time the congregation will have congregational ordinaries. On the other hand, this seems to contradict what Dr. Mahrt says in his book: "One performance a year of a polyphonic Mass, while a laudable endeavor and an enrichment of the liturgy, risks being removed from the context of a familiar practice, and being seen as an exceptional or even esoteric happening." (p. 33, emphasis added)

    Contrarily, the use of the SEP means that the congregation can actually observe the liturgy unfolding around them, instead of ignoring what the priest is doing whilst singing a hymn - or ignoring the hymn and trying not to feel guilty about it!
    Thanked by 1Mark M.
  • Why not use both SEP and hymns for now. A processional hymn (perhaps 2 verses that start before the priest and servers?) Then into the introit whilst Father incenses the altar. Maybe just one verse of the Psalm then the Gloria Patri and repeat the Antiphon. At the offertory perhaps just the Antiphon then a hymn (or motet) At the Communion there is usually sufficient time to do the Antiphon and some of the Psalm verses (Especially if you do it at the correct time) and a hymn or motet for communion. I agree this model not to be ideal, but perhaps this is a good bridge?


    With polyphonic ordinaries, doing them throughout the year but not every Sunday would not remove it from the context of familiar practice, but I agree with Dr Mahrt that the risk exists and has already taken place long ago in most places.

    All the best,

    Peter
  • We currently use the stuffed Mass that PMulholland suggested. I also agree that it's not ideal, but so far there are much fewer complaints.

    We only use polyphonic ordinaries for greater solemnities.
  • DL
    Posts: 71
    It seems nobody's mentioned the option of doing bits of polyphonic ordinaries. At our Ordinariate mass in the UK (Oxford), we quite often use a combination of the ICEL 'Missa Simplex'/the Advent & Lent chant/de Angelis and, say, three out of a polyphonic Kyrie, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei. A polyphonic Gloria is less frequent, and we sing the creed antiphonally. We also use the SEP quite a lot, and never have a sung or said mass without the antiphons in some form, either graduale, SEP or psalm-tone. We also manage to include a balanced amount of decent hymnody. Indeed, the only musical complaint I have heard in the last year is that the choir don't sing the Gradual often enough...

    Isn't it an idea, at least, to have parts of a polyphonic ordinary rather more often, instead of lurching between pop and Palestrina with nothing in between?

    If I may plug (and please excuse me if this isn't the place to do so), you can see/hear some of what we do Here
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    Last year I had the good fortune of talking over this issue with another musician who runs an exceptional music program in a large church. He has a professional ensemble who does complete polyphonic ordinaries every week, and I said to him, "If the Ordinary is supposed to be 'for the people,' how do you justify this decision?"

    His answer: "We are fortunate to have the musical forces (and the clerical support) to be able to do this, and we are the only church in the state so endowed. So we offer it, to give people another option as to what liturgy can be like. We aren't necessarily prescribing it as normative, just as normative for us here, and as an example of liturgical diversity and tradition at the same time."

    What a wise and comforting answer, I thought.
  • At Holy Rosary we also have incorporated polyphonic ordinaries on special occasions. It has been a blessing for many and it allows for an active listening participation. I believe important things are done taking small yet steady steps. Incorporating polyphony in a parish where it has never been used is a wonderful opportunity to take a step in the right direction.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    My practice presently is that we sing a complete polyphonic ordinary on about twelve major feasts in the year; the congregation sings a complete Gregorian ordinary the other Sundays, using some six different settings through the year. This means that the congregation has ample opportunity to sing the ordinary, but also enough opportunity to hear a polyphonic ordinary that its conventions are understood and well-received. Moreover, that fact that they sing a Latin ordinary regularly means that they know those texts well and are ready to hear and appreciate them sung by a choir.

    There was a time when I had the singers who could manage a polyphonic ordinary every Sunday, and I considered doing this; it is something that some exemplary choirs in large cities do. But then I considered our congregational singing of the Gregorian ordinary that was well established and had years of tradition, and decided that I could not take that away from the congregation, so I kept the practice we have today.

    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    But then I considered our congregational singing of the Gregorian ordinary that was well established and had years of tradition, and decided that I could not take that away from the congregation, so I kept the practice we have today.


    NPM should take note of what the word "pastoral" actually means in practice.
    Thanked by 1Ioannes Andreades