Voices leading, high and low
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    I just received this interesting email. See what you think:


    I enjoyed your article "Sing or Else?" in this weeks Wanderer. I've always wanted to ask this question, or give this observation from the pews, to a professional musician (sic.) and since your e-mail address was given, nows my chance :-).

    I'm one of those people who is afraid to sing due to thinking I'm always out of tune and don't want to mess everyone around me up (or greatly irritate them). Yet, I yearn to sing and love to sing at home or when I can safetly hide my voice amongst others. My experience at mass has been that the singing is invariably done by women with quite high voices and it seems almost impossible for most of us "hoi poloi" to sing along. Much to my great joy our family began attending the Latin Tridentine mass over a year ago and it has literally changed our lives! Going to mass is no longer a chore or an obligation; it is a great joy. We spend hours at the church on Sundays now. My children and my husband (!) now love mass (for all the right reasons not because the latin mass is a fad, or a flavor of the month for us). And, further, to my great joy, I've been able to sing when the men's Choir sings the Angelus and when they sing the Credo III. The men's voices are easy for me and my husband to sing along with. Not being so high pitched, we can do it!! And, I've spoken with others for whom it is easier as well.

    I think this must be a problem for others too. I've talked with others who are "singing challenged" and they've all told me the pitch is too high. The women sing too high. I was a bit heartbroken two weeks ago as our Men's Schola was no longer there and the Gregorian chant disappeared (hopefully temporarily) and the women's voices again predominated. Again, my husband and I could not sing. We couldn't attain their heights of pitch.

    Do you think this may be an unacknowledged problem and reason why people don't sing along?
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    This is nonsense. The idea of something being "too high" is all psychological. Everyone in my congregation stops singing if I play over a B, but yet they can sure belt out the high Eb "With the Holy Spirit" in the Mass of Creation Gloria.

    I am REALLY tired of laity trying to weasel out of singing at Mass. "That music is too high because it's sung by women!" Give me a freaking break.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Gavin,

    I half-agree with you. I think it’s an issue of perception. The octave difference, I think, sometimes throws men off.

    The “big 3” generally don’t publish stuff that goes above E-flat. You get the occasional E. This is all pretty safely medium-voice range, though perhaps not at 7am on Sunday morning. ;-)
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Yes, I say no congregational music for Masses before 8:30. I hate how the considerations of the suitability of music for the Entrance have to be pre-empted by whether the music is too high for 8:00.

    And I will, in fairness, admit that I find it psychologically more comfortable to sing with men than with women.

    I say the issue is catechesis, catechesis, catechesis. The laity have a role to play at Mass, which includes the dialogs, responses, and even hymns which replace the propers. As I wrote in one bulletin article, what would we think if the priest chose not to say one of his prayers or something? Then again, we do have that equivalent in priests who refuse to chant anything...
  • priorstf
    Posts: 460
    Relax Gavin - this one isn't a case of laity trying to weasel out but of laity trying to weasel in to singing. The writer may well be a low-range alto trying to match tones with the sopranos. Not easy on good days and, as pointed out by Felipe, even worse on Sunday morning. I'm an a.m. bass and p.m. tenor myself.

    In one of the choirs I sing with the director has the sopranos start off in descant every time it's written. In many cases this leaves nobody on melody and the congregation, already limited in sight reading, is confused. We also have a few singers whose high-range warble could send the common man scrambling for an air raid shelter. The writer may be hearing just such odd tones and becoming legitimately confused.

    Perhaps she might speak to the music director and mention her concern. Maybe there is a remedy. Even an evening offering of training for non-choir singers. And maybe there isn't any simple solution. If the music director is unaware of the problem, there is not likely any solution. But if the director learns that people stop singing at B, perhaps the selection of music can be made to respect that limitation.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I don't think this has to do with the range of a given piece or even in what key it is sung. I think what is lacking is a fundamental concept of pitch class. I think we take for granted that people even know what "high" and "low" mean, given that they are abstract ideas (no pitch is "higher" than another one). When I occasionally work with children from the church school, I have to demonstrate everything an octave higher, otherwise they will try to start singing in my octave. This is never a problem with trained children's choirs, because they have learned the concept of the octave. The writer of this e-mail seems to be missing some important musical concepts. All that aside, the bigger question is why does she feel that she shouldn't sing even if her singing is horrible (which it probably isn't). I think even the most persnickety of music directors among us would prefer to have someone sing than not sing. (And why is it every time we have a visitor with a "good" voice, i.e. they belt out over the rest of the congregation, does some well-meaning parishioner suggest they join the choir. They are exactly what I DON'T want).

    And, for what it's worth, I have made it a policy not to lower the key of hymns for early morning Masses (provided the range is small), instead allowing the unschooled voices in the congregation to sing in the lower octave when necessary (which many of them would do anyway, even in a lower key). I do, however, avoid modulating to a higher key, which I might do at an afternoon Mass. Has anyone else noticed that the hymnals like Worship II & III, HPSSC, Adoremus, 1940, etc. tend to have higher keys than Breaking Bread, Catholic Community Hymnal, etc? Coincidence? It's a shame, but if the average person does not learn to use their singing voice properly in elementary school, they will very likely be stuck with a limited vocal range for the rest of their lives. And it disturbs me greatly to see our school turning out class after class of future PIP's that have not been given fundamental training in singing or musical literacy.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    All ability factors being equal, I believe that the male baritone fach and timbre works more successfully across gender and voice range lines for "inviting" the PIPs to "weasel in(to)" congregational singing (great term, Prior!) This is not to say that I've never encountered wonderful soprano, alto and tenor leaders, I have and can name names! But I've learned something from teaching my kids at our K-8 parochial school new repertoire and the fundamentals of singing:
    Let's just agree that the little ones begin by learning all aspects of song and singing by rote. Initial delivery of a song's content can be modeled by an adult female, a live or recorded performance by treble children, or by an adult male singing either in modal/mixed/falsetto registers. I'm in the last category, duh. I generally choose songs whose tessituras are no larger than an octave, preferably a sixth. I then choose to set them in keys that tax neither the kids' ears and voices, and my own in falsetto. You teach 'em by phrase doses, then whole verse/refrain, then whole song. Now, once I'm convinced they "own" the new song melody and text so much they don't need a melodic shadow in their voice range, I will practice them using my second tenor/baritone (if necessary) so that they can acquire the sense of good intonation across an octave range. Then, as they grow through the grades and their ranges and abilities expand, my need to be in the same register with them into early pubescent laryngel issues is diminished. By the 6/7/8th grade other factors come into play as well. But trebles can still hear and sing in tune with the parallel lower octave.
    I believe there's an analagous, intuitive bias among the lay adult PIPs to this as well. My timbre/fach is clearly a spinto tenor. I don't ever "lead" using the Vennard ideal of round to brilliant mix, or bel canto, Fischer-Dieskau-like voice. I'd be more like an 8' rohrflaut than diapason. However, if the hymn melody hovers above G (below middle C) and moves up and around D, I can clearly hear less volume from those singing, male and female. But I don't compensate for that by swallowing or covering my timbre, I actually back off the volume, or point of my voice, more or less inviting or "seducing" the congregation to take up the slack.
    Our psalmists are a husband/wife tandem; he's a brilliant tenor, she's a true contralto. They cant the refrain melody in unison from the ambo. I can tell whom the congregations' ear is attuned: our tenor. (They cant the verses in duet harmony, lovely.) When my wife or daughter cants the melody, they do so with supreme soprano beauty. But the congregation needs at least two responsorial refrain melody turns sung by the men of the choir to "lock in" the tune before we split off to SATB/descant.
    Our organist has perfect pitch. We never lower the pitch of hymns. He'd go bonkers! ;-)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    Aside from the question of why anyone would even want to sing the Mass of Creation Gloria in the first place, some of our music is written too high for the average person. I have noticed that my congregation sings an octave below the organ most of the time. Although I would admit that many seem to have more difficulty with interval jumps than with the pitch being too high. People just don't sing as much or as often as they did years ago. Perhaps it could partly be a result of the budget cutters eliminating music and art courses during lean financial times in schools. I think we musicians tend to over-value singing sometimes. There are folks in the pew to whom singing means next to nothing. As for the infamous Gloria mentioned earlier, I am going to try to teach the congregation a new setting in the fall. Hopefully, I won't be run out of town.
  • john m
    Posts: 136
    Many people have never been taught how to use their entire vocal range. I have noticed that many who claim not to be able to reach the higher notes will frequently venture into the upper register in speaking - but for some reason this idea never translates into singing.

    And I agree that many people untrained in music have no concept of the octave, thus a melody sung by men might appear to the non-musician to be a more comfortable range than when sung in the same key by women, even though the latter are singing well within their middle register.

    It is frequently remarked upon that the music in older hymnals was pitched too high, but one must recall that a lot of congregational music (especially SATB hymnody) was intended to be sung in parts by musically literate congregations - so only true sopranos would be singing the tune, while the other singers would land on the parts in their comfort zone. Since modern congregations are generally musically illiterate, hymnal editors have had to drop the pitch so that everyone can sing the soprano line, and sometimes this just doesn't work.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    As a former church musician who inhabits the pews for a number of reasons these days, I find that any refrain that has a D or E in it (e.g., I Am the Bread of Life) is incredibly bothersome. I can do maybe two refrains, then I start harmonizing below the melody to keep from cracking. Of course hearing a soprano cantrix sing that into a microphone is quite grating on the ears too.

    Gavin, my wife is one of those people who feel self-conscious about singing at Mass and I found your comments quite uncharitable. Replace "singing" with "singing OCP music" and see if you feel the same. She doesn't like the music and feels quite resistant to singing when no one else is. I've had to sing a bit more softly to keep from embarrassing her. I've tried to explain why we sing the Mass to her, but the empirical evidence trumps any of that.

    To whit, we go to musicless Masses these days unless my schola is singing somewhere. I've reached the end of my tolerance for contemporary church music.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I admit I did start off using the transposer knob liberally. But I just cranked and cranked it up little by little. Now sometimes I just crank hymns HIGHER than they're written just to throw the congregation for a trip on some familiar tunes. My opinion is that E is not unreasonable for congregational singing on a very familiar tune: "Jesus Christ is Risen Today", "Hail, Holy Queen", etc. Eb is good for a moderately familiar tune. Anyone should be able to hit a D. Now I'm not saying everyone should sound good on these, I'm just saying people should be willing to put forth the effort to sing on these. I can sing up to a D in the women's range, albeit not well.

    I'm much more concerned about hymnody being too low. Someone complained about the refrain of "I am the Bread of Life", but did anyone bother looking at the verses? In Catholic hymnals, it's at a low Ab! Low Ab! That's where my voice turns into the "Bass-ment" sound! That is WAY out of a tenor range, and torturous to many altos! What about all the damage to people's voices through lack of use that we're perpetuating by transposing everything to the basement register? My predecessor DESTROYED my congregation's singing by transposing everything down. Part of serving congregations through music ministry is to DEVELOP their musical skills and knowledge. Just as we may program something interesting at offertory or prelude, we should take care that their voices do not have the high or low registers left unused.

    To say nothing of how this fits in with "spoon-feeding" the liturgy to people. I had a Greek Orthodox friend who was an organist at an Episcopalian church. He was always telling me "Liturgy means WORK of the people - when you're at liturgy, you're there to work HARD!"
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Gavin, that is a lousy song due to the incredibly wide range. I agree, Ds and Ebs are not bad in hymnody because the lines usually run up to them and don't linger. IAtBoL, however has one screaming up there on "raaaaaaaise you up" and then takes you there again in short order. And THEN it asks you to go a step higher for the big finish. Broadway all the way. My poor bass voice doesn't like that much when I haven't warmed up. I, like most parishioners, don't warm up in the car on the way to Mass. That is a sure way to start going in separate cars. Don't even get me started on the verses for Eagles' Wings....
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Right. Octave jump to an Eb is not pleasant for anyone. It's less about pitch than it is about good hymn writing. Good hymn writers don't use a range of an octave plus a 5th. There's nothing psychological about that, that's just a matter of fact.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    And yet, mon amis, they still sing the sucker with gusto at our joint! I'd say from watching folks in procession that its refrain is taken up more fully than any other "Communion hymn" out there, including "One Bed, Two Bodies." (oops, sorry Jeffrey, Mother's Day humor!)
    Mike, and I'm just playfully being a D.A. here, do you want to reassign "O beautiful, for spacious skies" as the National Anthem because the current hymn is lousy with an octave + 5? Or just when Rosanne sings it? ;-)
    I'm obliged to defend Sister Toolan, she's 80 this year, she's Californian, a exemplary Christian and a good egg.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    The difference between the National Anthem and I am the Bread of Life is that the National Anthem was written as a drinking song. I am the Bread of Life is (I guess?) a congregational hymn. And yes, I would say the National Anthem makes a lousy hymn, which is why it isn't one. Different song types require different singing styles, and for a hymn it is utterly irrational to have a congregation sing an Ab, or an A. When I'm drunk wailing away "To Anacreon in Heaven", I don't care if I break into falsetto at the high note or go flat at the low notes. When I'm in a crowd singing the National Anthem (which never happens anymore) I am making a patriotic gesture by singing, so the quality of my singing is not at work. In worship, we have to give God our best, and strained E's and basement Ab's are not a typical congregation's best. Have I am the Bread of Life sung by a choir or a soloist, fine. Use only the refrain, fine. But as a unit, it is unfit for congregational usage.

    Which by the way, I DO love that hymn. I only speak in terms of its pastoral suitability.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Folks, I had the funniest experience just now. I recorded our Gloria XV with the People of God this morning during Mass. I had had never notice this before but vast vast numbers of men in the congregation are singing this thing down an octave -- moving from E to G to F and down again and again. You can hear it in the MP3, this big low rumbling sound underneath. It is surprisingly loud!

    The guys in the pews are singing but no way are they going to sing anything within the the actual bass staff, except maybe touching the lowest line.

    This is an issue I had never noticed before listening to this. Well, it's not really an issue. It is just a fact. The thing is sung in fully THREE octaves, creating something that is a thrill to be there for but not so hot for listening. In fact, you would NEVER want to listen to this, I promise, unless you just get a kick out of mobs singing Gregorian chant. So odd really.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Ah, yes...the three octave sound...I was shocked when I heard it for teh first time earlier this year...and decided that the decision of our resident "chant terrierist" [definition: chant lover who also owns small dogs that latch on to things and WILL NOT LET GO NO MATTER WHAT] to sing the Ave Verum chant on C was not such a bad thing after all, since our sub-Basses out in the congregation cannot sing LOW C's and maybe singing it this low and gradually raising it a bit might get them singing out the low frequency range.

    But, Jeffrey, you are right. It is not something that you want to listen to. It's like have a tuned subway under the building.

    noel at sjnmusic.com
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Ick, Jeff. My congregation has quite a few men who seem to think that the only "manly" sound is the sub-bass range. Always out of tune of course; it's not so much 3 octaves as 2 octaves and a ninth or seventh. What really gets me peeved is hearing it ON THE AMEN OF COLLECTS!! It's like "GEEZ I know the priest is a tenor, but can we PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE just MATCH HIS PITCH???" Ugh.
  • Jeffrey TuckerJeffrey Tucker
    Posts: 3,624
    Yes, I know what you mean. But truly, I'm just glad that these guys--manly men who won't sing like girls, you know--are actually willing to sing something, which itself is amazing. You should see the guys during other Masses that feature all that sweety gooey manipulative music from the 70s. They stand there mad and disgusted, figuring that Mass is for girls. So I'm thrilled that they are actually singing anything at all. That alone is quite the triumph actually.
  • Felipe Gasper
    Posts: 804
    Jeffrey wrote:
    You should see the guys during other Masses that feature all that sweety gooey manipulative music from the 70s. They stand there mad and disgusted, figuring that Mass is for girls. So I'm thrilled that they are actually singing anything at all. That alone is quite the triumph actually.


    I see a lot of men in my parish refuse to sing “Praise to the Lord”. I’m not sure sweet/gooey/manipulative is how I’d describe that tune or text. No, that’s just a refusal to sing. It’s deeply engrained, and for many out there, it’s probably not worth worrying about because they’re die-hard set against the idea of singing, no matter how strongly the Church urges congregations to do this.

    I don’t deny that some men may indeed feel that this or that text/tune is a bit “saccharine” for their masculinity. I don’t think that’s new since the 1970s, though. There is plenty of saccharine stuff from the 1950s!

    Congregations besides Catholic ones have been growing more silent in recent decades. Many Church musicians, not just Catholic ones, are already lamenting the apparent demise of congregational singing in our age. This is even the case in Texas, where the high school all-state is a hugely competitive affair and choral singing in general seems a bit more prized than in other parts of the country. As my undergrad choir director at U of Illinois put it, Texas high school choirs sound like college choirs, and Texas college choirs sound like professional choirs. So far, I am finding that to be mostly true.
  • Charles in CenCA
    Posts: 2,416
    I'm a lumberjack and that's okay, I work all night and I sleep all day....
    SPAM
    SPAM
    SPAM
    SPAM (repeat)
    Lovily SPAM.....

    "But, Father.....I WANT TO SING!"

    Dittos to Felipe's comments. Our little pocket of Central California is just like Texas in the choral "arenas" of ACDA etc. And I've seen first hand at a couple of MegaChurch services that at least half the congregants are standing mute while the praise team rocks on.
    Tell you what about manly men singing: I have the weekly honor of teaching many lifer convicts such hymns as NICEA, TE DEUM, LOURDES as well as the songs found in Flor y Canto/BB (bilingual) every Monday evening. And I do strategically include a chanted hymn as appropriate (such as Veni Creator...last Monday) and the plainsong Kyries and Alleluias when we prepare them for their Sunday Communion Services. When you see the full spectrum of character types, from the poor, uneducated little Joes/Joses who just got caught, to rough, 3 strikes lifers all trying their best (which is often quite musically sophisticated) you cannot help but be humbled in the presence of the Lord.
    It's really striking. In every yard chapel I've been to I don't encounter the sub-bass or reluctant "guy" avoiding conformity.
    They WANT, they NEED to be, to know that they are unified in the sanctuary that prison chapels offers. And if I'm the vessel that provides the pilot light for their voices, they try with every breath, even if they don't speak English much less Latin, to enter that light and make it a strong beacon.
    I cannot tell you how beneficial this is to my own faith in Christ and informs what I do at my parish.
  • Michael O'Connor
    Posts: 1,637
    Charles, that is super work you are doing.
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    I heard the same complaint about "the hymns are too high" from a male friend at dinner the other night. He contended that when the director started the music it was too high and he couldn't sing it. I didn't have the heart to tell him that the pitch on these OCP classics never changes. The pianist isn't transposing them up and down based on who is directing. I know that because I worked as the assistant director. What we have hear is another clear case of "perception is reality."
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I might be really slow about this, but I had a sudden urge to look up Mozarabic chant and found something intriguing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7Vnbn456Qw Does this sound vaguely familiar?
  • JennyJenny
    Posts: 147
    I have had a similar experience to Mary Jane. I am a mezzosoprano who usually sings alto, plus I have a very low speaking voice. On more than one occasion a gentleman has come up to me after Mass with a comment like, "I'm so glad when you're the cantor. You sing so much lower than the other ladies." I smile and nod and the organist rolls his eyes because, of course, he plays the same for all the cantors but somehow, to these folks it sounds more accessible.
  • Maureen
    Posts: 674
    Oh, that's totally true. When I think people need encouragement to sing, I sing more like I'm speaking. The tone alone makes a difference.

    Although backing off from the microphone also works -- but I have to do it the right way, or everybody just thinks the microphone is malfunctioning again....