OF Nuptial Mass in Paschaltide: Which Ordinary?
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    We have a wedding at my parish coming up in Eastertide - in fact, it's the day before Pentecost.

    I am donating my fee for this wedding because the couple want the music in Latin, either chant or polyphony. They are doing this because, even though both families are Catholic, they come from different countries, cultures and languages, and the couple want a universally Catholic wedding.

    My question is: should I use Mass I, since it is Easter, or is there a Mass that is more appropriate to the OF Nuptial Mass? I stipulate that the GR calls it the "Missa pro Sponsis," and there are a number of choices for the Propers. I also like the "Missa Regia, Auctore Henrico Du Mont," but would like to stick with one of The Eighteen if possible.

    Oh, and another thing - if I read the rubrics correctly, this Mass should have a regular Kyrie and Gloria, right? I can't find anything that says they should be omitted.

    Any help from our experts would be greatly appreciated. Also, if any of you live in or near South Carolina and would like to come and sing, or would like to crash at my house and be very well fed for a day or two on your way to the Colloquium, I would be delighted to have you.
  • sadiefair
    Posts: 17
    Hi! Jonathan, I may be able to sing with you (and may be able to drum up a few more from our schola)...can you send me a separate email with the particulars? danddgray@hotmail.com. You are in Columbia, right??
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    The assignment of ordinary cycles, even in the old rite, is not hard and fast; one can select any ordinary that seems appropriate. That said, Mass I is one of the most beautiful of all the cycles, and on the eve of Pentecost might be a wonderful choice.

    The wedding Mass does not call for a Gloria as such, but the rubrics allow that when something is celebrated with more solemnity, the Gloria can optionally be sung. If you are doing a sung Mass, that is more solemnity. I always sing a Gloria for wedding Masses. It caused the eyebrows of one celebrant to be raised, but after my explanation, he was agreeable.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Thank you, Dr. Mahrt!

    Our celebrant is not very comfortable with singing the dialogues, and he doesn't know the OF dialogues in Latin anyway, but he remembers the altar boy's parts from the EF Mass.

    I completely agree about the beauty of Mass I. In fact, the last time I brought in musicians during Paschaltide, I gave them the Kyrie Lux et Origo, and they happily sang it with us. Some of them were very interested to hear that it was likely around a thousand years old.

    I hope to make this a beautiful day for this couple and for our parish. I am really grateful to them for being first to dare the chant.
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,033
    If this is an OF nuptial mass, I have heard that the Kyrie is to be omitted, though I cannot find a church document or official rubric to back this up.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    rich_enough, I can't find that either. We have not generally done a Kyrie or a Gloria at weddings, but there doesn't seem to be any real reason why they should be omitted. And now that Dr. Mahrt has weighed in, I feel confident that they should be sung.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    The standing of the Kyrie in some circumstances is ambiguous. The rubric says that if there is some other rite, then the penitential rite is omitted. But in the GIRM the Kyrie is a separate part from the penitential rite, and so on the surface of it, the Kyrie is not omitted. Still, on some occasions when there is a procession before Mass, such as Palm Sunday, the rubrics say that at the end of the procession, the collect is said, seemingly omitting the Kyrie. Is this a special case, because the procession is long and so will the Passion be, or is it simply interpreting the Kyrie as part of the penitential rite? I think it should be the former, but I see no way to make a final determination.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    The use of the Gloria is mandated in the 2002 Missale Romanum for Nuptial Masses (and that's a change from previous editions). I don't know about the Kyrie.

    I suppose, however, if one wants to be legalistic about it, if most of the Mass is celebrated in English, then technically that doesn't go into effect until the new English translation does....
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    I thought the Kyrie may be said on Palm Sunday:

    Omissis aliis ritibus initialibus Missae, et, pro opportunitate, Kyrie, dicit collectam Missae, quae deinde prosequitur more solito.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    JDE,

    Read this thread (http://musicasacra.com/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=42&page=1#Item_32).

    Here is a link (http://www.clerus.org/bibliaclerusonline/en/index2.htm) to the 2002 Missale Romanum. Go to "in celebratione Matrimonii", and you'll see "Actus paenitentialis omittitur. Dicitur Gloria in excélsis."

    The commenter above who mentioned this is not to go in to effect until the new English translation is first used agrees with the opinion of the canon lawyers at our local seminary.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    The new missal reads:
    V. IN CELEBRATIONE MATRIMONII
    Quoties Matrimonium intra Missam celebratur, adhibetur hæc Missa ritualis, cum colore albo vel festivo.

    Occurrentibus vero diebus, qui sub nn. 1-4 tabulæ dierum liturgicorum recensentur, adhibetur Missa de die, retentis in ea benedictione nuptiali, atque, pro opportunitate, formula benedictionis finalis propria.

    Si tamen, tempore Nativitatis et per annum, Missa, in qua dominica die Matrimonium celebratur, a communitate paroeciali participatur, adhibetur Missa de dominica.

    Quamvis Missæ formularia integra, commoditatis causa, proponantur, omnes textus, orationum præsertim et benedictionis nuptialis, pro opportunitate cum aliis commutari possunt.

    Actus pænitentialis omittitur. Dicitur Glória in excélsis.


    V. THE CELEBRATION OF MARRIAGE
    Whenever Marriage is celebrated during Mass, this Ritual Mass is used, with the color white or a festive color.

    On those days listed in nos. 1–4 of the Table of Liturgical Days, however, the Mass of the day is used, retaining the Nuptial Blessing in the Mass and, if the occasion so suggests, the proper formula for the final blessing.

    If, however, during the Seasons of Christmas and Ordinary Time, the parish community participates in a Sunday Mass during which Marriage is celebrated, the Mass of the Sunday is used.

    Although entire formularies for a Mass are given for the sake of convenience, all texts, especially the prayers and the Nuptial Blessing, may be interchanged with others, as the occasion suggests.

    The Act of Penitence is omitted. The Gloria is said.

    That said, is the wedding being celebrated after 4:00 P.M.? If so, then the Vigil of Pentecost is celebrated.

    BruceL, the rubrics of the new missal and of the second edition of the rite of marriage are in effect now. They don't await the English translation of either.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Dr. Ford,

    I agree. However, the canon lawyers my seminarian friends have consulted disagree. Is there anyway you could submit a dubium to have this clarified? I can't find it in writing anywhere.

    This is something of interest to all of us because, of course, the "Together for Life" book that so many parishes use for wedding prep is silent on it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    The USCCB liturgy newsletter for November 2000 has information about the effective date of the new GIRM. It was to take effect when the revised Missal was published in Latin -- which turned out to be 2002. The rubrical changes do not depend on the availability of translations. (This stands to reason as, after all, priests can read Latin.)

    On the other hand, the rubrics mentioned and cited above aren't in the GIRM; they're in the body of the Missal. Is it possible that the GIRM effective date doesn't apply to them?
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    The wedding is at 2:00 p.m. We don't start weddings later than that at our parish to avoid interfering with the 6:00 p.m. Vigil Mass.

    I will have to take up the question of the Kyrie and Gloria with my pastor and make sure we are on the same page.

    Thank you all for your help. I am really glad I asked far in advance, because the issues are more complicated than they might seem.

    Just repeating my invitation for additional singers to join our ensemble. Again, if you don't live near central SC, you are welcome to crash at my house on your way to the Colloquium.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    Note that the rubric says that the penitential rite is omitted, but it does not say that the Kyrie is omitted. The GIRM gives separate paragraphs for penitential rite and for Kyrie, so the omission of the penitential rite does not imply the omission of the Kyrie. It says that the Gloria is said, because that varies enough for it to be specified. But the presence of the Kyrie scarcely ever varies, and so its presence need not be specified.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Dr. Mahrt, you beat me to it by an hour. I was just about to post paragraphs 46, 51, and 52. I completely agree with you, too. I also note that the rubrics usually say something like: The Act of Penitence is omitted, and, if appropriate (or opportune), the Kyrie. This also implies that the Kyrie is said even if the Act of Penitence is not (though it gives some leeway for pastoral considerations).
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    OTOH, when Father, who is not too pleased about doing Latin in the first place, says, "no Gloria and no Kyrie," that's what you do. Problem solved. And, I note, also two fewer pieces to teach.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    No, JDE, when he's not too pleased about Latin, you smile, adopt your most condescending tone, and shoot back, "But Father! The Kyrie's in Greek -- didn't you know that?" ;)
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Mark, thanks, but I'm not pressing my luck! I'm keeping my eyes on the goal and remembering that half a loaf is better than crumbs.

    I don't know what the result of this wedding might be. I'm just going to do the best job I can do with the talents I can assemble and leave the results to the Lord.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    Okay, just to update everyone on the program:

    Introit: Domine, Refugium factus es
    Kyrie and Gloria are omitted (although they could be included, Father has asked that they be left out).
    First Reading: Gen. 2:18-24 (the creation of Woman)
    Alleluia (in place of the Gradual because it is Paschaltide): Alleluia mittat vobis.
    Second Reading: Col. 3:12-17 (live in love etc.)
    Alleluia (Paschaltide): Alleluia benedicat vobis
    Gospel: Mt. 7:21, 24-29
    Offertory: In te speravi, Domine
    Sanctus: Mass I
    Anamnesis: Sacramentary
    Amen: Recto Tono
    Agnus Dei: Mass I
    Communion: Beati mundo corde
    Communion motet: Ave Maria (chant + Victoria or possibly another setting)

    We are still working out how the procession and recession will be done. They are doing the Mexican tradition of the Thirteen Coins and the lasso (double rosary), and we will put an explanation in the program for that. Other than that it is straight up, and we will do some other polyphonic motets or possibly some solo pieces.

    Thanks for everyone's help and input on this topic. I plan to record it and will offer it to people at the Colloquium. Well, if it turns out really well.
  • mrose
    Posts: 2
    I hope this wedding went superbly!

    I have a related question to this thread, as I am getting married in the OF in 2 months' time. We're using the EF Propers in Greg. Chant and the Missa de angelis. The priest celebrant seems to think there should be no Kyrie because the Pentitential Rite is omitted (he pretty much exclusively uses Option 3 of the Pentitential Rite, which may be the source of his confusion). I tried to point out to him that the Kyrie is not part of the Penitential Rite, but rather simply ancient Christian prayer (i.e. the response to "Let us Pray" in the Byzantine Liturgy, etc.). I followed the discussion above about the Kyrie and it seems that the question is unresolved. We weren't going to have the Gloria but when I cited the 2002 Missale Romanum rubric, he was okay with it.

    Anyways, my question: would the omitting of the Penitential Rite mean that the Asperges cannot be celebrated? I understand that the Asperges and the Pentitential Rite are mutually exclusive, so I don't know if the rubric omitting the Pentitential Rite implicitly omits the Asperges (and I realize when the Asperges is used, the Kyrie is omitted).

    Thanks!
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    The Aspersion can only take place on Sundays. Will you be married on a Sunday (or Saturday afternoon)?

    Concerning the Kyrie, you might always try to use it as a response to the Prayer of the Faithful...
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    I almost never disagree with Duarte but I think one can have the Asperges on special occasions, such as first communions, confirmations, ordinations, and weddings, all to emphasize our royal priesthood and our need for cleansing and renewal.
  • mrose
    Posts: 2
    Thank you for your help!

    The Mass will not be the Sunday Mass, it is on a Saturday morning. It sounds like I will just see what the celebrant says. I do like the idea of at least using "Lord Have Mercy" as the response to the Prayers of the Faithful though.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    mrose, thank you for the well-wishes on the nuptial mass. The music went very well, but the wedding guests talked at full sports-bar volume through the entire prelude and postlude, and there were crying/gurgling/wailing babies and toddlers to accompany the propers and the rest of the music.

    Hope all goes well with your wedding!
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    I apologise if I'm getting it wrong, but this is what the Missal says:

    «On Sundays, especially during Eastertide, replacing the usual penitential act, blessed water can sometimes be made and aspersed in remembrance of Baptism.» (2002 edition, General Instruction 51, my translation)

    «On Sundays, especially during Eastertide, blessed water can sometimes be made and aspersed in remembrance of Baptism, even in Masses anticipated to the vesperal hours of Saturdays, in all churches and oratories.» (2002 edition, Appendix II, my translation, and I couldn't find a better word to use instead of «vesperal»...)

    So I see no provision at all for the Asperges on any day other than a Sunday, and this is in keeping with the tradition of the Roman Rite, since in the Extraordinary Form the Asperges takes place on Sunday only as well (and then only once, and once exactly).

    > the wedding guests talked at full sports-bar volume through the entire prelude and postlude

    That's pretty much expectable in nearly all weddings, I'd say... In many weddings I am happy if they only keep their peace during Consecration...
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    > I do like the idea of at least using "Lord Have Mercy" as the response to the Prayers of the Faithful though.

    When I married the Prayer of the Faithful was sung throughout (including the prayer intentions) with Kyrie 19 from Taizé; back then this was the best I could come up with, and worked very well. Actually the book with Prayers of the Faithful for every Mass published by our Bishops' Conference (which is used almost everywhere around here even though it's not compulsory) gives «Kyrie eleison» as one of the suggested responses, and includes the first invocation of Kyrie XVI as a possible musical setting (though unfortunately the Prayer of the Faithful is more often recited than sung).
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