Trying to find a Novus Ordo Missal in LATIN....
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Trying to find a Novus Ordo Missal in LATIN.

    I'm told the Vatican Press published one available by the Daughters of St. Paul.

    Anyone seen this? Can anyone help?

    Thanks!

    Ordered a LATIN EDITION OF Missal (edited by James Socías), but....it was in English, not Latin.
  • newmanbenewmanbe
    Posts: 76
    I have Ordo Missæ ad Usum Fidelium, which has the Ordinary of Mass in Latin. It is available from Pax Book, which also has an altar edition of Missale Romanum for US$679.50. Daily Roman Missal has according to some reviews the entire Mass in Latin and to others just the Ordinary.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 966
    Here is a somewhat cheaper study edition for $150 from Aquinas & More. It's the editio typica tertia from 2002, so without the emendations of 2008.

    The edition published by Libreria Editrice Vaticana is sold out, according to their catalogue.

    By the way, I couldn't find a hard copy of the 2008 editio typica tertia emendata anywhere, but the changes were also published in Notitiæ, 45 (2008), 367-387 (is Notitiæ found online?).
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 517
    This appears to be the 2008 edition. (From PaxBooks--the Vatican's official online sales company)
  • dvalerio
    Posts: 341
    Am I correct if I deduce from the comments above that what is desired is a printed book, not just a PDF file?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    dvalerio,

    would you please E-mail me? THANKS!

    my email address
  • Maureen
    Posts: 674
    I think I remember seeing that a good chunk of Notitiae is online at Vatican.va, but in a weird place. Possibly just in Italian or Latin or something.

    Of course, it's possible that I dreamed this.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Got to lay off the pepperoni pizza at bedtime snack time, Maureen!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I think the Midwest Theological Forum also publishes an attractive Latin altar missal.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Does the Ordo Missae In Cantu not suit your purposes? It's a large-format ritual book, complete with musical notation, but I believe it is fairly complete. The term "missal" gets thrown around a lot, so it's hard to know what anyone actually means by that.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    What I'm referring to is a "HAND-MISSAL."

    I'm trying to find one that has the Responsorial Psalms and Alleluia verses in Latin.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 966
    If you're looking for Responsorial Psalms and Alleluia verses in latin, you'll need the Ordo lectionum missae. It gives the full responses and a biblical reference to the verses to be sung; also of the Alleluia the full verses are given. I acquired one about two years ago, but I can't remember where. A Google search doesn't give many sellers; this is only one of them.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    THANK YOU!!!
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    That's what I was trying to say in our previous thread about the variations on the Alleluia verses. Those aren't in the Missal (Sacramentary), they're from the Lectionary. This is the Latin version of the Lectionary.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    SkipR,

    I agree that the word "Missal" needs to be explained. I should have specified what I was looking for.

    Like the word "Gradual," it has several (important) meanings.

    For instance, Socías publishes a "hand-missal" that has all the readings, all the priest's parts, etc.

    It seems that my friends were correct when they told me Novus Ordo Hand Missals have long since been out of print. :-(

    Therefore, it seems to me that I need a copy of the Ordo lectionum missae. Right?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    If you want it in Latin, yes. Additionally, personally I would want to consult a source more official than a hand missal if was going to do anything more with the information than use it as a worship aid (like make musical settings of it!).
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Jeff, as chonak mentions, MTF still publishes the Daily Roman Missal. My copy is the 2004 Sixth Edition. It has Alleluia verses in Latin AND English. Psalm texts are in English, although the ICEL refrains do always have the original Latin in addition to the English. Eucharistic Prayers are side-by-side Latin and English, as is the Order of Mass. Prefaces are English only, as are all the orations. Since you mentioned that you wanted a "hand missal", then this is the closest thing I can think of.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    May I point out that this continues to be absolutely beyond comprehension? Why is there not one source that can be relied upon?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Noel, I keep pointing out that there is! The Missale Romanum (for the order of Mass) and the Ordo Lectionum Missae (for the readings). Maybe you mean one cheap source that can be relied upon?
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I don't know what the revision history of the Ordo Lectionum Missae is, but PaxBooks has an edition dated 1988 for $39. As far as I know that's as current as they come, and better than the price at the euro site linked above.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Thank you for all these responses.

    I really appreciate it.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I believe the newest Ordo Lectionum Missae is the editio typica altera from 1981. It's what our 1998 (Sundays and solemnities) and 2002 (weekdays) Lectionary comes from. So 1988 should be good.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    THANKS!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Paxbook is offering the Ordo Lectionum Missae, and at 600 pages, it probably contains full texts.

    [UPDATE: This misapprehension is corrected below.]

    A good US source for Vatican books is the Newman Book Store in Washington; they can order and ship wherever is necessary, and the shipping cost may be lower.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    "Noel, I keep pointing out that there is! The Missale Romanum (for the order of Mass) and the Ordo Lectionum Missae (for the readings). Maybe you mean one cheap source that can be relied upon?"

    Then, and I think that I am asking this for a bunch of lurkers, what is the reason and use of these other sources? Why is Jeff not just using the two books that you say are all that you need?
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Then, and I think that I am asking this for a bunch of lurkers, what is the reason and use of these other sources? Why is Jeff not just using the two books that you say are all that you need?


    I don't know why Jeff isn't using the Missale and the Ordo Lectionum. I know those are the official sources from the Catholic Church for the Latin of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite.

    If you're asking why there isn't a reasonably priced, single-volume hand missal for the Ordinary Form that's in Latin and contains the readings (or at least the Responsorial Psalm antiphon and Alleluia verse) in Latin, I don't know. Maybe there should be. But I don't know what kind of demand there would be for it. (That statement doesn't mean that I don't think there should be demand for it.) But I keep coming back to the fact that if I'm going to compose musical settings for things or get to the true source of translations, I want to look at the official books, not edited reprints and worship aids, which is basically what all hand missals are. If it seems like a bad idea for a priest to celebrate Mass from a hand missal, then it seems like a bad idea to use them as a primary source for liturgical texts (especially when one finds, as Jeff previously did, inconsistencies).
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    I share some thoughts from an expert:


    Jeff, you have stumbled across a very complex problem. There are indeed many small errors in the "Lectionary for Mass for Use in the USA," but not all the examples you mentioned are errors. Some are intentional choices to use different translations, not always or only the NAB, as the basis of our Lectionary texts.

    There are some typos in the 1969 Latin edition.
    There are some typos in the 1970 USA edition.
    There are some typos in the 1981 Latin edition
    There are some typos in the 1998/2002 US edition.
    There are typos both in the biblical references and in the printed texts.
    Some typos from older editions were corrected in the more recent editions, but the more recent editions also introduce a few new errors.
    Some discrepancies are not really typos or errors, but simply differences in the versification of various editions of the Bible (since the NAB, the Vulgate, the neo-Vulgate, and other editions unfortunately sometimes have different chapter and verse numbers for the same texts, and are sometimes even based on different ancient texts -- especially bad in the case of the book of Sirach!).

    For the Psalms: the US Bishops and the Vatican officials did not like the revised translation from the New American Bible, so they decided to use a different version of the Psalms in the most recent edition of the Lectionary.

    The rest of the Lectionary texts USUALLY follow the NAB translation, but some changes were made, esp. in the incipits (opening words) of the readings, to provide better context, such as for dangling pronouns.

    So, to answer your question: WHAT TO DO?

    1) Realize and accept the fact that nothing on earth is perfect, not even in the Church or in the Liturgy.
    2) Use the texts as printed in the Lectionary for a particular Mass or particular day, even if that might be slightly different from a published Bible, or from another day on which the same text is used for another Mass.
    3) Hope and pray that there will be fewer errors in future editions of the Lectionary, although we will never achieve perfection, as long as we are living on this earth.

    I hope this answer does not disturb you too much, but that you can realize that none of the typos, errors, differences, or discrepancies really affect the core of our Faith.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Just wanted to clear up the fact that I didn't mean to infer that any particular hand missal was riddled with errors or anything. It's just my academic side that feels it best to go to the source for the most reliable information. For example, when one finds discrepencies in various editions of music, it's best to go to the manuscript. In some way, isn't that the basis for what Solesmes had done throughout the 20th century with the restoration of chant?

    I realize, however, the official liturgical books are expensive. But while I doubt many of us have access to a library with those holdings, maybe pursuing something like that through interlibrary loan would be an option.
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    Paxbook is offering the Ordo Lectionum Missae, and at 600 pages, it probably contains full texts.


    The Ordo Lectionum MIssae does NOT contain full texts. We have both editions at my seminary and all they contain are the biblical references.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Paul,

    For the readings themselves, but are the Responsorial Psalm antiphons and Alleluia verses written out?
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 966
    Indeed, the Ordo lectionum missae does not contain full texts, but the refrains of the responsorial psalms and the alleluia verses are written out. To be clear, I attached a file which shows what the Ordo gives for the 31st Sunday of Ordinary Time Year C.

    You see that of the readings only the "themes", the incipits and a biblical reference is given (to the Nova Vulgata). Of the responsorial psalm, a biblical reference to the verses is given, and the full refrain. Of the alleluia, the full verse is given.
    OrdoLectionumMissae.pdf
    41K
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,032
    The Lectionary (with full texts in 3 volumes) can be found by entering "lectionarium" into the search at the PaxBook website. This seems to be the 1969 edition, not the 1981 revision.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    From the last four messages I repeat....why does this have to be so complicated?
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    What's so complicated? You get the Ordo Lectionum ($39), then you look up the citations in your Nova Vulgata (currently also $39). Boom, you're done.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    It would be a good thing if there were a hand missal with Latin texts for people who want exactly that: not for use as a reference book, but as an aid to participation in Mass.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Chronak - As a fan of the Ordinary Form in Latin, I second that.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    So, why is Jeff O using them if that's all there is to do - buy two books for $78?
  • godfrey
    Posts: 21
    The complete Latin Lectionary for the OF is sold out on paxbook.com. The only other place I have seen it available is on Midwest Theological Forum, but it is very pricey!

    http://www.theologicalforum.org/product.asp?ci=25&pi=367
  • WellerCurphey
    Posts: 1
    Catholic Truth Society out of London has a lovely latin / english missal (one with leaterett cover so it seems fancy but is really only about 8 usd and the other is just a booklet type cover for 2$

    They are very nice and compact, small enough to fit into a pocket

    they already ran out of the leather covered version but they should restock soon. I have the old translation of the novas ordo and can't wait for the new to be restocked. Don't accidentally buy the old tridentine version (extraordinary form) they also sell this

    http://www.cts-online.org.uk/acatalog/info_D710.html
  • Paul F. Ford
    Posts: 857
    I think someone else already drew our attention to this on another thread; but the entire missal in Latin is downloadable at http://www.scholasaintmaur.net/Voir_details/32_Missel_romain._Editio_typica_tertia_2002.html

    Click the rectangle in the lower left labelled "Télécharger" and the download begins.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    I think I downloaded that version once, and found it badly formatted and hard to manage. The same 2002 Latin editio typica is also available online here in its entirety from the site of the Congregation for the Clergy, which is what I use when I need it.
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    The link provided by Paul Ford is no longer working. Any other locations where a Latin Novus Ordo Missal (altar missal) is available online? I'm looking for a preface prayer (in Latin - Novus Ordo) for a priest celebrating his jubilee of ordination. I don't have a Latin altar missal at home...
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Yes, here. (The link in my previous post has been changed to point to something else.)
    Thanked by 2janetgorbitz CHGiffen
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    Thanks very much!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Here's the pdf.
    Novus Ordo Latin Missal.pdf
    3M
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen janetgorbitz PaxTecum
  • janetgorbitzjanetgorbitz
    Posts: 964
    Many Thanks!
  • Ambrosius
    Posts: 49
    Google: Messale Festivo Latino-Italiano. It has all Latin texts - including readings - for Sundays and Feasts.
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