Pronunciation for the Greek sections of the Reproaches
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Anyone know of a guide? Or want to lead me through it quickly? I tried googling and came up with nothing, so it might be a worthwhile thing for CMAA to post on their website.
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    Something close to this:

    Hah-gee-os ho the-os. Hah-gee-os is-chi-ros. Ha-gee-os ah-thah-nah-tos, e-le-eh-ee-son hi-mas.

    That would be depending on whether you would use the smooth or rough breathing on the vowels. The 'ch' in 'ischiros' is like German 'ch', and the 'o' sounds are more like 'aw' than 'oh'.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    I've mostly sung 'hagios', 'theos' and 'athanatos' with a silent 'h'. I have no reason to suggest this is better or worse than sounding it - it's just how it's mostly been done where I've sung. Does anyone know of reasons for pronouncing the words in particular ways?
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    eh? what are Reproaches? Isn't that just the trisagion? (Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us...)

    Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

    Whenever I hear it ALL the initial Hs are silent, but the theta (theos, athanatos) is pronounced "th" like in "moth."

    I think it's more like this:

    "Ah-gee-os oh Theh-os, Ah-gee-ohs Ees-kee-ros, Ah-gee-ohs Ah-thahn-ah-tos, eh-leh-ee-sohn ee-mahs"
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Jam: "what are Reproaches?"

    If you have not already, right click and save to your computer these PDF files.
    Then look for "Improperia".

    http://www.musicasacra.com/pdf/graduale1961.pdf
    see PDF page 225 (251 of 1219)

    http://www.musicasacra.com/books/gregorianmissal-eng.pdf
    see PDF page 311 of 718
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    hey--thanks for that! that's pretty awesome. I didn't know the Latin rite ever used the Trisagion in liturgy.
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    Right, so does this mean that "eleison" in the Kyrie should use short "e" sounds, i.e. eh-LEH-ee-sohn?

    I've frequently heard ay-LAY-ee-sun.
  • Randolph Nichols
    Posts: 398
    Beyone the issue of pronunciation, I've been told that in certain monastic traditions the Greek phrases of the Trisagion are sung in a manner that differs from the Latin repetition. That is, there is what I take to be a bending of pitch and rhythm in a Byzantine (?) manner while the Latin phrases return to the normal western Gregorian practice. Is there any truth to this?
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    This question would keep several Classics students employed for years. ;-)

    What we have is a situation in which the original Greek was pronounced in a certain way, but has changed over the succeeding 2000 years to something very different. To make it more complex, the Roman rite must have borrowed the text when some of the changes had occurred, but not all. As Jam said, in modern Greek, none of those initial h's are pronounced, but when the text for the reproaches was 'imported', the word for "holy" still had the initial 'h' sound ('hagios"), which is similar to why the church in Istanbul is called the "Hagia Sophia" - "Holy Wisdom". So did the word for "us" ("hymas"). But the definite article ('ho") had already lost the initial h, so it was transcribed as "o".

    "eleison" is a different case. The initial syllable is a short 'e', but under the influence of Latin it became a long 'e' in practice (as many of us have seen in our own singers). The diphthong "ei" was originally one sound ("ay"), but was probably separated in Latin, perhaps to allow for an additional syllable in singing and to avoid the bright 'ay' sound. I had an extra syllable in mine by mistake. So Jam and Pes are correct, "eh-leh-ee-son".
    Thanked by 1Patricia Cecilia
  • mjballoumjballou
    Posts: 993
    Someone told me that classics students are always shocked by the pronunciation when they arrive at a Greek Orthodox liturgy. Since I had only studied Koine, my mortification was moderate.

    And then, of course, there's the question of Greek filtered through the ecclesiastical Latin lens.

    And oh, to have such worries. In my territory, the Reproaches are truly a "rara avis."
  • Pes
    Posts: 623
    gregp

    'Glad to hear all that. A nice touch for us Romans might be to pronounce it "ay-LEH-ee-son." The short e would lend itself to a slightly sharper articulation, a nicer note separation, than the slightly unpredictable smear of a diphthong.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    Well! Should we expect the Greeks to pronounce Greek in any other way but the modern way?

    Likewise with Latin. I would imagine that a student who had only studied classical Latin would likewise be shocked at a Latin Mass. I'm minoring in classical Latin here at University, and I've known several classical Latin profs to disdain ecclesiastical pronunciations. Personally I don't care either way, and nor does my current professor--we can pronounce it classically or ecclesiastically, as long as we're consistent within whatever we're using.
  • Chris AllenChris Allen
    Posts: 150
    Having taken a year of modern Greek (Demotic) in college, I'd go with "AH-yohss oh theh-OHSS, AH-yohss eess-khee-ROHSS, AH-yohss ah-THAH-nah-tohss, eh-LEH-ee-sohn ee-MAHSS."
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    the Gs are pronounced like Ys? funny, I always seem to hear the Gs in there. but maybe it's like the folks who hear the G in the "Agnus Dei" when... there isn't one.
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    Would seem odd to me to use modern Greek pronunciation for what is not modern Greek. After all, for some of these words, not only has the aspiration been lost, but entire unaccented initial vowels have vanished. In this classical philologist's opinion, gregp's suggested pronunciation hits the target.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    well, it is modern Greek, too, I mean it's not like the words have changed over time, just pronunciation.

    the thing to remember though, is that it's not classical Greek -- it's koine Greek, which is a lot closer to modern Greek than to classical Greek (which no one actually knows how to pronounce anyway)
  • Ioannes Andreades
    Posts: 310
    But you clearly can't pronounce hagios using the modern Greek pronunciation. After all, in the Grad. Rom. the word is clearly conceived of as trisyllabic as it would have been in Koine.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    Anyone for a thread on German Latin? :-)

    I guess the point about the pronunciation I was taught (silent h's in hagios, theos, Ischyros, athanatos and hymas) is that it was latinised - though not entirely, as witness the short 'a' of 'hagios' vs the long one of 'sanctus', and the short 'o' of 'hagios' vs the long one of 'nobis'.
  • JamJam
    Posts: 636
    The pronunciation I put is the best for singing. Beginning H sounds are no good to sing; even where they exist ("homine," for example) it is better to leave them out. At least, that is what I have been taught in choir. Also the one I put has the required syllables. But the one Chris Allen put can tell you where the stressed syllables are.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Beginning H sounds are no good to sing; even where they exist ("homine," for example)

    Not necessarily. Using an "h" before a vowel is VERY helpful to get the wind moving through the larnyx and is often recc'd for very high-in-the-range (or low-in-the-range) notes.

    However, one under-pronounces (so to speak) the "h" when it is not in the text.
    Thanked by 1Patricia Cecilia
  • jwwaldo
    Posts: 1
    In the Latin Rite and most Western traditions, the Trisagion is usually elided into "O Holy, All-Powerful and Ever-living God" or a variation. (You folks seem pretty erudite, so maybe you already know that!)
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    My understanding is that the Greek g's are more like y's. Like gyros = year-ohss.
  • StDenisStDenis
    Posts: 15
    Here's my take:

    1. Gamma (γ) is not so much a "y," as a gutteral "g" with qualities of "ch," yet no full stop. It is hard for me to describe the sound in writing. When in doubt, go with a regular hard "g" sound. But don't sing it as "y."

    2. I would absolutely sing the rough breathings. Biblical Greek was aspirated. That is why the diacritics are there. The same goes for Latin; the presence of the "h" is not an accident in a word and should be sung.

    3. Epsilon-eta (εη) is not a diphthong. Thus, the "ei" of "eleison" should be pronounced separately. The elision of these two distinct vowel sounds developed in the Latin West.

    4. The first epsilon (ε) in "eleison" should be SHORT, notwithstanding the common Western pronunciation.

    5. Accents should be stressed according to the Greek orthography.

    6. Omicron (ο) is short; omega (ω) is long. There is a difference. We should pay heed.

    7. One problematic pronunciation is that of eta (η). In Koine, the letter had not yet iotacized. Thus, ἡμᾶς could be "hee-MAS" or "hey-MAS." I am partial to the latter, though the modern liturgical pronunciation in the East would be the former (minus the aspirate iota).

    8. The other problem is the pronunciation of upsilon (υ) in ἰσχυρός. Upsilon, too, had not yet been iotacized in Koine times, and indeed not until the Middle Ages. Thus, if we want to be purists it should be pronounced more classically as one would read a French "u." I realize I'd probably be in the minority by advocating for this usage, and it sounds somewhat odd, the best alternative is an "ee" sound.

    *****

    Thus, here is how I would suggest one should pronounce the reproaches:

    Ἅγιος ὁ Θεός, Ἅγιος ἰσχυρός, Ἅγιος ἀθάνατος, ἐλέησον ἡμᾶς

    HAG-i-os HO theh-OS / HAG-i-os ees-khee-ROS / HAG-i-os a-THA-na-tos / e-LEH-ey-son hey-MAS.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Chris Allen
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