Thrid verse 'O God beyond all praising'
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Third verse for Thaxted Does anyone have a third verse for 'O God beyond all praising'? I swear I have used one for an ordination, but I cannot find it. I realize there are only two verses in the original hymn by M. Perry. Is it my mind that has just gone south?

    Donna
  • Donna,
    Yes there is a third verse in the Hope Publishing setting:

    Then hear, O gracious Savior,
    accept the love we bring.
    that we who know your favor
    may serve you as our king;

    and whether our tomorrows
    be filled with good or ill,
    we'll triumph though our sorrows
    and rise to bless you still:

    to marvel at your beauty
    and glory in your ways,
    and make a joyful duty
    our sacrifice of praise.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Thank you so much. It's the Recessional for an upcoming Ordination here, and two vss are just not enough. Now I know what to look for- I'm sure I have that octavo lying around here somewhere.


    Donna
  • I typed too quickly. The above verse is verse two in Worship III, but verse three in the Hope Publishing setting.
    The missing verse in WIII is:

    The flower of earthly splendor
    in time must surely die,
    its fragile bloom surrender
    to you, the Lord most high;

    but hidden from all nature
    th'eternal seed is sown--
    though small in mortal stature,
    to heaven's garden grown:

    for Christ the man from heaven
    from death has set us free,
    and we through him are given
    the final victory!
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Randolph No, wait- the above is the second verse printed in a past Ordination. What's the middle verse then?

    Donna
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Thank you!
    Donna
  • Let's see if we can confuse each other even more. I should never have mentioned Worship III. The order of Michael Perry's text (1982 copyright) is:

    vs. 1 "O God beyond . . ."

    vs. 2 " The flower of . . ."

    vs. 3 "Then hear, O gracious . . ."
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Yes, I know!!! Thanks.
    Donna
  • Randolph, I believe is correct. Proulx's setting attests.
    However (and I really would tread lightly, with Kathy's imagination as candlelight), I have always found the phrase, "Christ, the man from heaven...," unwieldy in all respects, and in this commercial era almost comical.
  • Donnaswan
    Posts: 585
    Well, I am not in love with any of these vss except the first, but it seems to be 'THE' hymn for current ordinations in our Diocese. I have used another set of words for Eucharist , acc with organ and brass for Vigil-- by is it Chepponis,or someone like that? Can't remember. Have just come home from an Epsicopal choir rehearsal which always involves drinkies afterwards. I think it was one ofthe Communion hymns for Pope JpII's visit to St Louis?

    I know Holst regretted ever writing it since the original words are rather patriotic/militaristic and he was a pacifist after the slaughter of the FirstWorldWar. Ithink the tune became very popular whenitwas sung at Princess Diana's funeral. I must have a dozen arr of it in my files

    onna
  • JMC
    Posts: 1
    Might this work as a second stanza for O God beyond All Praising? Specifically for the Rite of Dedication of a Church. Any constructive suggestions would be most appreciated. Thanks!

    O God, we are your people,
    We follow in your way,
    And know your loving presence,
    Creating each new day.
    This building is your temple,
    We come to hear your Word,
    To share the heav'nly banquet:
    Your precious body, Lord.
    And go from here rejoicing,
    To all the gospel bring,
    To serve each other in your name,
    Proclaiming you are King.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    How about this verse for when it is used as a recessional?

    As we go, announce thy Gospel,
    thine holy words of truth,
    give us strength to witness to you,
    our calling since our youth.
    And keep us ever-holy,
    preserve us from all sin,
    that one day we may praise you
    and dwell in heav'n therein.
    May we always praise the Father
    and praise His only Son,
    and praise the Holy Spirit,
    eternal three and one.
  • JMC, I took a crack at a revision, which gives a supplicatory character. Further suggestions/corrections welcome; try it also with "thee/thy/thou" "shall", etc.

    (FYI, "O God beyond All Praising" has been chosen as our diocesan hymn for the Year of Faith, and we neither have a cathedral here nor will we in the near term; in fact a new university chapel is further along than a cathedral.)

    (Links go to subsequent points of discussion.)

    As we, your own disciples/As your adopted children/As we, your sons and daughters
    strive heav'nward/continue/strive onward in the way
    the truth and life of Jesus,/of Jesus Christ our Savior,
    O Father, (we now pray/now we pray)
    your Spirit bless this temple,
    wherein will sound your Word,
    wherein will sins be pardoned,
    (and/where) you will be adored;
    wherein we (will/shall) (with/in) (gladness/wonder)
    receive your Son, our King,
    from where/and whence to every nation
    the Gospel we will bring.
    Thanked by 1Ben Yanke
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 733
    Nice! But after using "wherein" thrice, "from where" sounds extremely clumsy. The preposition ought to be "whence"; to preserve the meter I suppose an "and" could go before it.
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,200
    I like this idea (and Mark's correction to it). There's also a sort of inconsistency about who is being addressed. The first line speaks of us as "your own disciples", so it implies we are addressing the Lord Jesus; but then the rest is addressed to the Father.
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • Proposed revisions (posted above):

    RC:
    "As we, your own disciples" => "As your adopted children" (I did wish to address the Father throughout this verse, thank you.)

    MT:
    "from where, to every nation," => "and whence to every nation"

    AE:
    "wherein we will with gladness" => "wherein we will with wonder" (alliteration overkill?)

    Any other takers?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,200
    Perhaps "we shall"? You're adding a verse to a British text anyway.

    I don't think "heav'nward" is ideal: it's hard to pronounce. Also, it seems to create an odd metaphor with "way": are we on a road moving ahead or are we going upward? Possible alternatives: "onward" or "homeward".
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 2,910
    I really like it.
    Is this bring proposed as an additional verse, or a replacement for the middle verse?
  • Additional verse for Dedication/Consecration of a Church (but not its anniversary). Though I suppose it could replace the middle verse.
  • More proposed revisions:

    AE
    "As your adopted children" => "As we, your sons and daughters" (yay/nay?)
    "strive onward" => "continue" (yay/nay? "continue" may be weaker)
    "the truth and life of Jesus," => "of Jesus Christ our Savior," (the intended continuity of "the way, the truth and life" is obscured by the phrase break)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,200
    y,n,y
    Thanked by 1Aristotle Esguerra
  • more revisions:

    AE
    "we now pray" => "now we pray" (option 2 sings more easily)

    "and you will be adored" => "where you will be adored"

    "wherein we will with gladness" => "wherein we shall with gladness" => "wherein we will with wonder" => "wherein we will with wonder" => "wherein we will in wonder" => "wherein we shall in wonder"
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,200
    The long list of subordinate clauses each starting with "wherein", "where", and "whence" is strained. Consider changing focus with something like this:

    As we, your sons and daughters
    strive onward in the way
    of Jesus Christ our Savior,
    O Father, now we pray
    your Spirit bless this temple,
    wherein will sound your Word,
    wherein will sins be pardoned,
    and you will be adored;
    grant here that we with wonder
    receive your Son, our King,
    and that hence to every nation
    his Gospel we may bring.
  • Heath
    Posts: 661
    I wonder about the enjambment between lines 4 and 5. That's a pretty firm line of demarcation between melodic sections and I just don't think the idea will carry through very well.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,200
    Especially since line 4 seems like a weak line, as if it were "padding".
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,340
    I'm finding that expressions like "we pray" are very well attested in the ancient Latin hymns.It doesn't sound trite to me.

    Why not change the punctuation? Place a period after "pray," and begin the next line "May your..."
  • Lines 4–5:
    Heath, yes, I agree. Chonak, I was toying with "O Father, thee we pray" but decided against introducing one old second-person-familiar pronoun. Kathy: I also like how the draft has taken on some aspects of a revised-translation Collect. I'm not so keen on breaking the meter if a better solution presents itself.

    I'm sure we could get rid of another occurrence of "wherein", e.g.:

    …wherein will sound your Word,
    our sins will be forgiven,
    and you will be adored;…

    but I do like how singable the word is. My memory of the Collect for Divine Mercy Sunday influenced my first take ("in what font…, by whose Spirit…, by whose Blood").*

    *These Collects are so much more memorable now that they are sung regularly.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,200
    The English "we pray" seems rather pale and generic. What expressions appear in the Latin hymns: are they more specific? There's "poscimus" ('we ask urgently') in the doxology verse sometimes.

    The collects have a lot of "quaesumus" and "concede", but many collects have no word at all along those lines ("beseeching", "asking").

    I like the version with "wherein" a couple of times too.


    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Maybe in this case the "we now pray" better expresses some sense of urgency than "now we pray"?…
  • I have been following this conversation, what is the final version for the third verse? I would love to incorporate into our worship when we sing O God Beyond All Praising again. :) Blessings.
  • Could we find a more prayerful word than "pray"? Instead of "we now pray", try "we beseech"?
  • Ursinus, welcome to the site.

    This thread is nearly two years old. Many of the people in the original conversation are no longer regular posters here (or are no longer contributors at all.)

    I would suggest beginning a new thread with this as the topic so that we can have a current discussion, rather than picking through words left to us by people long gone, and hoping for their input when they will not be here to give it.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,200
    The conventional third verse offered at the top by Randolph is a good option.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 639
    Whew. I think the "old hundredth" praises all, quite well..
  • PaixGioiaAmor,

    sorry, I thought I try haha. I will just accept that it is an end road here for the discussion on the revision. Chonak, thanks for the pointer. I don't know, I am still not comfortable with the third verse, I am referring to this one here,

    The flower of earthly splendor
    in time must surely die,
    its fragile bloom surrender
    to you, the Lord most high;

    but hidden from all nature
    th'eternal seed is sown--
    though small in mortal stature,
    to heaven's garden grown:

    for Christ the man from heaven
    from death has set us free,
    and we through him are given
    the final victory!

    Still feels an awkward insert in between the original two verses. Particularly, "but hidden from all nature
    th'eternal seed is sown--
    though small in mortal stature,
    to heaven's garden grown:

    for Christ the man from heaven..."

    I am glad there was a third verse putting Christ into the hymn, but it feels like it makes Christ a garden grown item lol. And also, it would be more accurate to say Christ the God-Man from heaven.." I get what the verse is trying to say though.

    MrCopper, what are you referring to exactly?

    thanks for your thoughts.
  • I believe the Worship IV hymnal has all three stanzas, but they put an asterisk before the second one ("The flower of earthly splendor...") with a footnote indicating that it "may be omitted." By comparison, the St. Michael Hymnal (fourth edition) has all 3 stanzas with no such footnote, while the OCP editions only have the first and last stanzas ("O God..." & "Then hear..."). I'm not quite sure what to make of it myself.
  • I frankly love the imagery of "Christ, the man from heaven." It puts Jesus Christ in the role of being fully human and fully God.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,058
    A few points:

    1. I don't know if "The flower of earthly splendor" stanza was always part of the text or if the hymn writer added it later. One would need to check the publication in which the text first appeared when The Jubilate Group published it in 1982 or shortly thereafter.

    2. I agree with ursinus that "The flower of earthly splendor" stanza is an "awkward insert" between the other two stanzas. And, as much as I like this hymn text, I would say that the "Then hear" stanza following the "O God" stanza also is not a smooth transition.

    3. I recall that when GIA's text review committee reviewed this hymn text at its meeting in December 2009, "The flower of earthly splendor" stanza was not included on Hope's Online Hymnody, as it is today:

    http://www.hopepublishing.com/html/main.isx?
    sitesec=40.2.1.0&hymnID=4462&titleSearch=O%God%BEyond%all%praising

    Upon inquiry with Hope Publishing Company, GIA was told that the hymn writer, Michael Perry, preferred that the second stanza not be included. (He was, of course, already deceased at the time.) GIA proposed adding "this stanza may be omitted" as a footnote. And that's the note that Hope itself uses on its Online Hymnody today.

    Interestingly, we sang this hymn yesterday at a priest's funeral Mass in the Diocese of Orlando. The Order of Worship booklet did not include "The flower of earthly splendor" stanza. I don't think I'd ever use this hymn at a funeral but, if I did, that "The flower of earthly splendor" stanza would certainly be included.

    4. Do Catholics in the US have a higher opinion of this hymn than it actually deserves?
    Thanked by 1Choirparts
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 3,595
    4. Do Catholics in the US have a higher opinion of this hymn than it actually deserves?

    Interesting question, am interested in what prompted it?
    Simple answer, IMO only, no. Its merit is self-evident despite origin.
    From EBENEZAR to ENGELBURG one could rail pro or con whether a tune serves a text optimally. I don't think that either a worship demographic (USA or the Phillipines) nor a cultural "trait" inherent in a melody has any bearing upon the efficacy of a tune/text marriage.
    That is not to say that certain genres contain examples where those cultural aspects seem to discourage usage because of the heighthened associations, such as JERUSALEM, SALVE FESTE DIES or SOMOS EL CUERPO DE CRISTO/PESCADOR DE HOMBRES, etc.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,058
    Interesting question, am interested in what prompted it?

    In addition to my earlier remarks dealing with whether the stanzas flow easily from one to the next (thereby indicating a possible structural problem with the text), there is the matter of how many hymnals these days actually include the hymn text. In the "yes" category are all hardbound hymnals and missalettes from OCP, WLP, and GIA, as well as a number of other hymnals created for Catholic use, even some that include almost nothing which is not in the public domain.

    Contrast this with all the hymnals not intended for Catholic use. Less that half of those published in the USA in the past 15 years include the hymn.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 3,595
    Got it, thanks. I think that THAXTED "took off" because of the Proulx concertato octavo which included the "2nd verse" not included in most hymnals. And because it had that sort of "embolism" factor with the choir assigned that verse, it gums up the consistency fo sho.
    But the use of THAXTED is here to stay. I classify its coherence and attraction among other seminal melodies like FINLANDIA and KINGSFOLD, etc., tho' Kathy will argue the former as unworthy.
    I don't audit other Christian hymnals regularly, but I would think the ratio of hymns to songs/choruses has drastically been diminished.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,798
    I have rarely heard of any Mass with music planned by "Traditional" Catholic musicians (you know what I mean) which didn't include this hymn.

    I think it's overdone.
  • Interesting information. Interestingly, our Lutheran siblings have made their own hymn recently with the THAXTED tune as well. "Te Deum - We Praise You and Acknowledge You, O God" by Stephen Starke.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,189
    It is frequently requested, often by clergy, in my experiences.
    We've done it once at the Cathedral since I took over.
    It is found with two verses in the Lumen Christi Hymnal.

    If you'd like a set of Lumen Christi Hymnals for your Parish, I'd love to work with you to get them there!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 7,361
    Block quote doesn't seem to be working today. The gods of Microsoft must be angry.

    "I think it's overdone."

    It may be overdone. It isn't the greatest of hymns, but many others are so much worse.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Perryw
    Posts: 1
    An additional verse that gives the hymn a stronger Christological focus and which "fits" between the two original verses is:
    For at the cross of Jesus we see that love displayed,
    As there he suffered for us, our sins upon him laid.
    And three days later, rising, he triumphed o'er the grave,
    That we may know, rejoicing, his mighty power to save;
    To know of his forgiveness, to know his boundless grace;
    And give us hope in darkness, that we will see his face.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,273
    A new second stanza ("The flower of earthly splendor..."} was added at the request of Roman Catholic composer Richard Proulx who wished to write an anthem based on the text. Since it was written for a specific Sunday based on the reading for the day, I Corinthians 15, it is usually omitted in hymnals. The author recommended the hymn to be sung in relation to Communion without this stanza.

    So, "The flower of earthly splendor..." stanza is indeed by Michael A. Perry.

    I'm not at all happy with the suggested additional stanzas that do not have the rhyme scheme ABABCDCDEFEF of the Perry. The stanza just posted above by Perryw does indeed have the correct rhyme scheme and also fits well between the first two original verses (recall that the "new second stanza" ("The flower...") was itself an addition

    If the original two stanzas were to be augmented by interpolating the stanza requested by the Perryw stanza and the one requested by Proulx, we would have the followimg 4 stanza hymn:

    1. O God beyond all praising,
    &nbsp:   we worship you today
    and sing the love amazing
    &nbsp:   that songs cannot repay;
    for we can only wonder
    &nbsp:   at every gift you send,
    at blessings without number
    &nbsp:   and mercies without end.
    We lift our hearts before you
    &nbsp:   and wait upon your Word,
    we honor and adore you,
    &nbsp:   our great and mighty Lord.

    2. For at the cross of Jesus
        we see that love displayed,
    As there he suffered for us,
        our sins upon him laid.
    And three days later, rising,
        he triumphed o'er the grave,
    That we may know, rejoicing,
        his mighty power to save;
    To know of his forgiveness,
        to know his boundless grace;
    And give us hope in darkness,
        that we will see his face.

    3. The flower of earthly splendor
        in time must surely die,
    its fragile bloom surrender
        to you, the Lord most high;
    but hidden from all nature
        the eternal seed is sown -
    though small in mortal stature,
        to heaven's garden grown:
    for Christ, your gift from heaven,
        from death has set us free,
    and we through him are given
        the final victory.

    4. Then hear, O gracious Savior,
        accept the love we bring,
    that we who know your favor
        may serve you as our King;
    and whether our tomorrows
        be filled with good or ill,
    we'll triumph through our sorrows
        and rise to bless you still:
    to marvel at your beauty
        and glory in your ways,
    and make a joyful duty
        our sacrifice of praise.

  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,058
    The three stanzas written by Michael A. Perry not only have a consistent ABABCDCDEFEF rhyme scheme; Michael Perry's rhymes are nearly all perfect ones as well. (His only imperfect rhymes are wonder-number and Savior-favor.)

    Not so with the stanza offered by Perryw. The odd numbered lines all have imperfect rhymes (Jesus-for us; rising-rejoicing; forgiveness-darkness).

    Personally I find this added stanza more didactic than doxological. And its syntax is not smooth and contemporary, like Michael Perry's. It seems more out of place than Perry's own "The flower of earthly splendor" stanza. (This matter of a different and conflicting syntax appears to be a problem with all the additional stanzas suggested on this thread during the past three years.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • I noticed that “O God, Beyond All Praising” was recently sung as the recessional hymn at Justice Scalia’s funeral Mass. But the second stanza (“The flower…”) was not used, even though it may have been appropriate in this instance. Instead, a different final stanza was added to the THAXTED tune! This stanza is actually the Trinitarian hymn text (minus the refrain) of “O God, Almighty Father” by Capuchin Fr. Irvin Udulutsch, typically sung to the tune GOTT VATER SEI GEPRIESEN. Although the end rhymes are perfect, the rhyme scheme, however, does not follow Perry's original ABABCDCDEFEF scheme.

    Someone posted the worship aid from the funeral on the internet, at the end of the following article:

    http://www.politico.com/story/2016/02/antonin-scalia-funeral-mass-program-219528#ixzz40iWBWUNv

    Just an FYI.
    Thanked by 1Choirparts
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 6,975
    thaxted-over rated and over used
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,273
    thaxted-over rated and over used

    I tend to agree, as much, if not most, of its popularity is presumably due to its being taken from The Planets.