Offered an organist position, but..
  • LarsLars
    Posts: 116
    I was invited to be an organist/MD for a medium sized parish. It's a very nice church, decent pipe organ(a bit small, 10 ranks). They are trying to get the old choir to come back after hiatus.
    I'm currently unemployed, and they know it. I was offered basically pocket change. Just barely enough to cover fuel costs of me driving there several times a week. I said the only way I can justify such commitment is if I was offered more payed work throughout the week(funerals, weddings, extra Masses me playing solo organ etc...). I was told no.
    I just can't do it. distressed...
  • As hard as it is to stomach the reality, it IS ok to say 'no'. If you have a fair bit of driving to do, and you're only being paid a pittance and you feel like you're being taken advantage of, then it might very well be prudent to save your talents for a place that would actually value them. Sadly, the church knows how to treat her own. I think many of us here on the forum have experienced that at one time or another.

    Now, to give the parish the benefit of the doubt, perhaps there are financial troubles and so it is possible that the pastor is hamstrung in this department (then again, if it's a medium-size parish...). Regardless, that does not need to guilt you, or preclude you from seeking better employment elsewhere.

    I had to walk away from a job once, and it broke my heart, too, because then they really struggled in the music department after my departure (didn't even have music Christmas morning, for Pete's sake!). So I understand the pain of not wanting to see a parish suffer for wont of decent music. But it is also healthy to draw boundaries. If the pastor doesn't respect your (I presume, genuine) needs, then I doubt you'll get that much more support once you're in the job.

  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,025
    I think you made the right decision to counteroffer and then decline when the pastor didn't meet your reasonable request.

    For too long, lay parish employees and volunteers have let themselves be taken advantage of by pastors out of a rightly and sincerely motivated but skewed sense of sacrifice for the Church/parish.

    The Church pays market rates and professional salaries to lawyers, finance managers, HR managers, and for construction. Yet the Church's own parish professional ministers are often paid substandard wages to do the real work of the Church.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    The American Catholic Church's historically preferred parish staffing model has been to rely heavily on women religious whose orders would be paid relatively small stipends if anything. Though the time when that model was "viable" has long past, its half-life in the worldview of pastors and bishops is much longer than it has any right to be.
  • One other thought:

    “Offer it up.”

    In this case I mean not that you should suffer in silence, but you can consecrate the whole situation to our Lord, and ask Him to arrange things as He sees fit. For all you know, your declining is a part of Divine Providence to work some other effect in another way.
    Thanked by 3Lars DavidOLGC LauraKaz
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 685
    In the past musicians of the Catholic Church had a day job in addition to playing the organ on weekends, scheduling choir practice, etc. The organist at St. Mary's for example worked for a company who made wooden pallets and shipping containers (wooden boxes). Our current organist plays for one Mass at St. Mary's on Sunday, he is working as a nurse during the day and going to school at night, he also plays at the Saturday Vigil Mass at parish north of us.

    In the past, if Catholic musicians weren't working a day job, then they were busy composing music, publishing music and hymn books, giving lessons, etc., in short, making something of themselves to supplement their meager pay from the Church.

    If you find yourself in a parish whose weekly income from church envelopes is for example $1,000, it is unrealistic to hope that you will be paid anything more than meager amount. It's a real struggle for parishes whose income falls in this range to make ends meet, let alone pay what you might consider a fair wage.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar Lars
  • LarsLars
    Posts: 116
    @Don9of11 I understand your point, and I agree to certain extent. But I am not asking for a 6 figure salary for one Mass, for what they are offering me I would rather volunteer for free completely.
    What I was trying to say is that the church has outsourced 90plus percent of music that is happening there, funerals, weddings, months minds, whatever else to people who have no idea what they are doing. They want me only for 45 minutes per week for the MAIN Sunday liturgy, and the rest, the better paid stuff, is covered by random people who probably have never even been to a church before. This model to me seems insane.
    I thought that the size of the parish would provide an opportunity to become a full-time organist, and I suspect technically that would be possible, but the will was just not there.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    What I was trying to say is that the church has outsourced 90plus percent of music that is happening there, funerals, weddings, months minds, whatever else to people who have no idea what they are doing.
    this
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    for the past two to three years, I have been directing the liturgies on a retreat with 300 men... the person who originally invited me was a tenor soloist that insists on singing solo Shuberts AM at communion, and then providing SLJ songs for the usual four hymn sandwich... when I stepped in, I introduced the traditional music of the chant ordinary and traditional hymns... this year I have been asked to step aside because they want to go back to the guitar masses.

    this is the way the 'pew wars' has always been since the introduction of the NO.

    the divide between the two styles is glaringly obvious, and follows either the tracks of modern vrs. traditional theology which is going further one way or the other as time marches on.
  • The American Catholic Church's historically preferred parish staffing model has been to rely heavily on women religious whose orders would be paid relatively small stipends if anything. Though the time when that model was "viable" has long past, its half-life in the worldview of pastors and bishops is much longer than it has any right to be.


    Yet current Canon Law states that parishes should pay a fair a livable wage if one is not able to volunteer their services.

    At least my parish pays fair wages to our organists/MD.
  • They want me only for 45 minutes per week for the MAIN Sunday liturgy, and the rest, the better paid stuff, is covered by random people who probably have never even been to a church before.


    If I interviewed for that position, my interest would have dropped to zero after hearing this. The liturgical philosophy would be impossible to tolerate. You did yourself a favor.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    I agree with @Diapason84 . Either you're hiring me to run the full music program at this parish or you're bringing in someone to do a weekly one-off gig.
    Thanked by 2Lars LauraKaz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I thought I would miss church music when I retired - I don't. No more entitled brides and their demented mothers, no more divas who should have quit singing years ago, no more bombastic and bellowing sermons about nothing, and no more dealing with political factions that want to run the church. Nothing there to miss and I am perfectly happy not being part of it.

    Lars, it is insulting what they want you to do and what they want to pay you.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw Lars DavidOLGC
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    In the past, if Catholic musicians weren't working a day job, then they were busy composing music, publishing music and hymn books, giving lessons, etc., in short, making something of themselves to supplement their meager pay from the Church.
    Find the flaw.
    If this was the 'glorious' past, then it's no surprise that things aren't improving in times where parish incomes tend to decline... especially when there are collegues around who proudly declare that they don't need the money, and happily offer their time to the church for free...
    Thanked by 2Lars LauraKaz
  • All I know is, my graduate degree in music (which is what facilitates my ability to do what I do at this level) didn't pay for itself. Brides don't pay me for "one hour's worth of work". They pay me for 7 years of college and countless hours spent in a practice room until 1am.

    Also, it's ok to want to be paid... you know... to survive.

    To those musicians who are in a position to offer their services gratis, more power to them. If you're retired and want something to keep you busy, or you have a day job and a little music on the weekends is enough to scratch the artistic itch, then by all means. But it is not unreasonable to want to be paid for highly skilled labour.

    A parishioner who is a plumber or electrician might volunteer some time for a special project at church... but they aren't expected to come and do free plumbing 10-15 hours every week. I don't understand why music is magically considered this special, un-touchable (un-payable) category.
  • As my new priest has reminded me when speaking with me about how much I do or don't do at Church regarding my position,

    "A worker is worthy of his wages."

    He doesn't want me taking on too much, but when I do extra things, he expects me to report them so I can be fairly compensated.

    I'm learning to cherish this.
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    So do I. When pastor or staff members say how grateful they are that I did this or that extra thing, I regularly reply: it's such a fine way to show this gratefulness that I never get complaints from the parish office for putting everything on my monthly bill.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I was one of those musicians who was fortunate enough to not need the money. I took it anyway to keep from undermining other musicians who do need it. I donated it to charity and no one was the wiser.
  • jcr
    Posts: 132
    I am reminded of a fellow I met quite a long time ago. His wife (an organist) and he (choral conductor) were interviewing for a position. The committee and the pastor liked them and offered a salary well below their stated salary needs and said to him, "We know that this is way below your needs, but we would like to ask you to take a step of faith and come for this amount_____ then trust that the Lord will enable us to offer you a living wage soon." To which he replied, "When it comes to a step of faith, I'm right behind you. I want to challenge you to take a step of faith and give me what I need to support myself and my family, and together we will trust that the Lord will enable you to live up to your obligations." This bought uproarious laughter from committee and pastor alike and he was hired for a decent salary. One can never sure that such nerve will be accepted by its recipients, but this does sound as though there is something about the situation that doesn't appear in the job description or in your discussions with anyone at the church. Unless you can see the situation clearly, it could be trouble. The devil you know...
  • tandrews
    Posts: 157
    All I know is, my graduate degree in music (which is what facilitates my ability to do what I do at this level) didn't pay for itself. Brides don't pay me for "one hour's worth of work". They pay me for 7 years of college and countless hours spent in a practice room until 1am.


    I tried that with HR once. It didn't work.
  • tandrews -
    and yet, HR was interested in bringing you on
    precisely because of
    7 years of college and countless hours spent in a practice room until 1 am.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Tandrews… I hope you walked away