Article - 5 Good reasons we must stop doing Traditional Worship
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Link to PATHEOS.COM article
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  • Antonio
    Posts: 43
    Is this catholic?

    Benedict XVI: 'In the history of the liturgy there is growth and progress, but no rupture. What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too, and it cannot be all of a sudden entirely forbidden or even considered harmful.'
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    In case there's any confusion, the author is writing from an evangelical Protestant perspective, that is, one in which there is often no agreed-upon liturgical text and no church law with a recognized authority to apply it; but rather a pattern of customs.

    In a movement like that, in which individual congregations often have great autonomy, "traditional" often means "doing what our congregation or our denomination did when I was young".
    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago PaxMelodious eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    ...when I was young".


    Hmmm, Chonak -
    How, um, is that different from too many current Roman Catholics... who think that their favourite guitar sacro-pop music is 'traditional'. (Sad and sick... is it not!)

    This is not merely Protestant or Catholic. This is a sickness of our culturally ignorant times which infects scads of people in all denominations. Many are the Catholic musicians who happily infect their unwitting flocks with the bacilli of this 'traditional' disease of mind and spirit.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    one in which there is often no agreed-upon liturgical text and no church law with a recognized authority to apply it; but rather a pattern of customs.
    Please see new Motu Proprio for further instructions
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    As Chesterton said, conservatives mostly wish to preserve the errors of the previous generation.

    Which . . . I think is an unfair generalization. Only neocons want to do that. Frank Sheed had a more appropriate analogy - there are those who allow a white post to become black by doing nothing - accepting the creeping increments of nature - and those who wish to preserve a post's whiteness by constant painting. Who is the ideal 'traditionalist' in this situation?

    After all, we need to ask ourselves - is preserving the status quo, without reference to an ideal, any better than progressing from our current state without a state of reference either? (And in case anyone say that there isn't a 'Golden Age of Catholicism', I would reply - first, Bull - second, that I'm not aiming at a specific day, hour, and minute of the ideal, there are plenty of periods open to multifarious Catholic sensibilities. (I think it would be entirely plausible that St. Gregory, Palestrina, and [yes, Francis] Mozart would shake hands as far as a Catholic sensibility would go.)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Stimson-

    and those who wish to preserve a post's whiteness by constant painting. Who is the ideal 'traditionalist' in this situation?
    reminds me of the repainting of the Sistine Chapel...

    Mozart may have been a great Catholic (was he?) I don't have a bone to pick with him personally... it's his MUSIC that gets to me.

    BTW... are you really in rehab?

    'As you know, Mozart was only from here up,'' Mr. Borge explains, gesturing to his torso. ''He was what we call a bust, but he succeeded in spite of that physical handicap.

    Victor Borge


    I am sure he had the ability to continue the great polyphonic tradition, but somehow got swept away in the novelty of the time.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    "BTW... are you really in rehab?"

    See Simon Stimson conducting the congregational church choir at the 23:40 mark for a couple of minutes thereafter, and post-rehearsal gossip at the 32:00 mark and thereafter in "Our Town" (1940 - film went into public domain and no one's restored it yet, sadly)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DhU126vvxqA

    It's a great nom de clavier d'ordinateur.

    Thanked by 2StimsonInRehab CharlesW
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Those who know me personally question whether I ever left at all - or entered, for that matter . . .
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    "Leave loudness to the Methodists."

    Lutherans historically being thin on the ground in New England (Grovers Corners being inspired by Peterborough, New Hampshire).

    http://forgottenactors.blogspot.com/2016/03/philip-wood.html
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368

    ...the repainting....

    Speaking of the Sistine Chapel -
    There was no 'repainting'!
    We are fortunate that it was restored to its original brilliance - the brilliance that Michaelangelo created and proudly left us.
    There is nothing 'traditional' about a grime- and candle-smoke-smudged masterpiece - except, perhaps, for those who prefer the smudge to what lies beneath it.

    And to think that we had to depend on an oriental corporate giant (Soni, by name!) so lovingly to pay for it!
    God, it is said, works in mysterious ways!

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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    And scholars insist that in spite of this physical handicap, Mozart was fairly happily married. But Mrs. Mozart wasn't. She went all the way to the floor!
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    We must stop this inflationary language about Herr Mozart, gentlemen! (I said as I nine my elevenderloin with my fiveke.)
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    One may question the 'Catholicity' of dear Mozart. He was a Mason, yet was something of a conscientious Catholic - affected (infected?), as were many in those times, by Enlightenment thought. He did, though, remark on some occasion or other that 'Protestantism is all in the head'. Such an astute observation requires a modicum of orthodox perspecuity.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    yea, i was looking at his star from the golden spur earlier today
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Protestantism is all in the head'


    "She shall crush your head and you shall lie in wait of her heel.."
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Genesis III.xv

    The Authorised Version -
    And I will put enmity between thee and the woman,
    and between thy seed and her seed;
    it shall bruise thy head,
    and thou shalt bruise his heel.

    The Douay-Rheims Version -
    And I will put enmities between thee and the woman,
    and thy seed and her seed;
    she shall crush thy head,
    and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

    The Vulgate Version -
    Inimicitias ponem inter te et mulierem,
    et semen tuum et semen illius;
    ipsa conteret caput tuum,
    et tu insidiaberis calcanco eius.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    we need to ask ourselves - is preserving the status quo, without reference to an ideal, any better than progressing from our current state without a state of reference either?


    Errmmmm.....I would suggest that recognition of Original Sin requires us to know that there IS no earthly "ideal" time of Catholicism, nor will there be one, musical or otherwise.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Some eras are closer than others . . .
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    star from the golden spur


    Yeah, apparently he wore that thing around EVERYWHERE until some friends of his told him it was rather inappropriate. Which shows he certainly wasn't ashamed of his faith - the appropriateness of just how, ahem, enthusiastically he expressed his faith seems to be where we differ.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Some eras are closer than others . .


    In whose opinion? For quite some time until the German/Pian "liturgical movement" took hold--specifically Pius X's motu proprio--a 'non-singing' congregation was the norm. Then along came Pius X, and that era was replaced with the 'singing' congregation--which did NOT sing the Mass, but rather sang AT the Mass. And recently, they have sang awful things AT the Mass which are artistically the dead-opposite of the Mass' feng-shui.

    Yes, I prefer Palestrina, Hassler, Josquin, and contemporaries like Peeters. But those are the people of the congregational "non-singing" period.

    So. In whose opinion?

  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    "non-singing" period.


    Don't you think that's a bit of a generalization?

    recently, they have sang awful things AT the Mass


    The fact that you specify the most recent music as awful, compared to the previous eras, shows that some issues of the liturgy are more troublesome than others.


    So. In whose opinion?


    The Church's, god willing! Tra Le Sollectudini, Sacrosanctum Concilium, and all that.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Which shows he certainly wasn't ashamed of his faith
    I may be confused, but the Golden spur star has nothing to do with the faith, in fact it has to do with masonry.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Don't you think that's a bit of a generalization?


    No. If the congregations WERE actively participating by singing the Ordinary, why did Pius X waste all that ink?
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    You are confused, Francis. The Order of the Golden Spur is a distinction given by the Pope to those acknowledged to have benefitted the Church through distinguished service. (Lassus was a member - then again, so were Paganini and Casanova and, gasp, Nicolo Montani. They weren't always so discerning.) Ironically, becoming a Knight lifts any previous decrees of excommunication on the person receiving. If only Wolfie had received it a few years later! (Supposedly, he joined the lodge that he did because of its devotion to "Catholic traditions". 18th century Austria sounds like a place of contrasts . . .

    And speaking of that era of Church music, I direct old dad's attention to the article a few issues back talking about congregational singing in Mozart's time - an interesting example of participation. I don't think it was that the congregation was entirely silent - they were just singing different alternatives to Gregorian chant (the deutsche sungmesse of Germany, or the Medicaean school promoted by Frs. Haberl and Witt et al.)
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Kudos, Stimson!
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    EDIT: A few issues back of "Sacred Music".

    Well, Chick, I admittedly went through a Masonic phase myself as a younger man. We had a lot of weird-sounding degrees, but Golden Spur was not one of them. The sad thing is, there are a lot of genuinely good men who join the Lodge. Gentlemen who would be appalled if they found out what they are expected todo in some of the higher orders, especially of the Scottish Rite. Stomping on the Cross and all that. I imagine that Mozart [and Papa Haydn, for that matter] and his Austrian counterparts were more akin to the English Masons than their Continental counterparts - more given to benevolent Bacchanalia than seriouns conspiracy towards undermining of civilization. But I suppose I must be careful in generalizing. The latter did frequently use the philanthropic efforts of the former to cover their own insidiousness. But where the culpability of each lies is complex.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    benevolent Bacchanalia

    .
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Is that something like charitable shenanigans?
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Shenanigans? Isn't that the restaurant you like, with all the goofy stuff on the walls and the mozzarella sticks?
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    That's from the movie "Waiting" isn't it?
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Close. "Super Troopers".

  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Thought I recognized it!
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