ASSUMPTION OF THE B.V.M. - We did this at.....
  • Vigil of the Solemnity of the B.V.M.
    Solemn High Mass at the Cathedral of Our Lady of Walsingham
    Houston

    6.30 pm
    Celebrant - The Rev. Charles Hough III
    Deacon - The Rev. Mr. James Barnett
    Sub-Deacon - Gregory Orcutt (Instituted Acolyte)
    Lectors - Messrs. Jackson Osborn and Preston Schultz (Instituted Lectors)
    Organist and Choirmaster - Edmund Murray
    The Cathedral Choir and the Cathedral Schola Cantorum

    All the readings were sung

    Organ Voluntary - Meditation on the Introit, Vultum tuum - - - Improvisation
    At the Procession - Hymn: 'In Splendour Arrayed' - - - Laudate Dominum

    The Introit - Vultum tuum deprecabuntur- - - Mode II (Palmer-Burgess)
    Kyrie - Missa dixit Maria - - - Hans Leo Hassler
    Gloria - Missa Sancta Maria Magdelena - - - Healey Willan

    Psalm CXXXII - Memento, Domine - - - Chant, Edward John Hopkins
    Alleluya and Verse - Felix es, sacra Virgo - - - Mode VIII (P-B)

    The Nicene Creed - - - - Recto tono, with organ embellishments
    The Universal Prayers - - - Byzantine chant

    At the Offertory -
    The Antiphon: Beata es Virgo Maria - - - Mode VIII (P-B)
    Anthem: Salve Regina - - - William Byrd

    Sanctus - Missa dixit Maria - - - Hans Leo Hassler

    The Our Father - - - Mode VII
    Agnus Dei - Missa dixit Maria - - - Hans Leo Hassler

    At the Communion -
    The Antiphon: Beata viscera - - - Mode I (P-B)
    Anthem: 'Thou art the Star of Morning' - - - Jesus, Virgo Marie
    Hymn: 'Sing of Mary, Pure and Lowly' - - - Pleading Saviour

    At the Dismissal - Hymn: 'Hail, Holy Queen, Enthroned Above' - - -Salve Regina Caelitum
    Organ Voluntary - Toccata on Salve Regina Caelitum - - - Improvisation
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Drake
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    Congratulations on the program! The feast of the *Assumption* is a favorite of mine.

    *EDITED*
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Lovely indeed!
    And I've always been partial to Transfiguration.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I wish I could remember the title of it, but our organist has done a very lovely arrangement of "Ave Maria" (Gregorian chant) in a 20th century style reminiscent of Flor Peeters, or Louis Vierne. He played it as the Communion meditation.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Vetus Ordo, Low.....Holy Family, Kingsburg CA

    Immaculate Mary (LOURDES)
    Ave Maria (plainchant)
    Ave verum corpus (plainchant)/
    Panis angelicus (Lambilotte)
    Salve Regina (simple)
  • Sounds of Joy (based on Concordi Laetitia)
    Kyriale IX
    O Gloriosa Virginum (4vv)
    organ:
    O Sanctissima
    Magnificat (Dandrieu)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    At Holy Ghost, Knoxville, TN, 6:00 p.m. mass we did:

    Entrance: "Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above" (Salve Regina Coelitum)
    Psalm: The queen stands at your right hand... - Bolduc
    Offertory: Salve Regina - the Solesmes version - Simple Tone. Cantor solo.
    Mass Ordinary: ICEL chant
    Propers: Rice
    Communion: Organ - Arcadelt Ave Maria
    Hymn: Alleluia, Sing to Jesus (Hyfrydol)
    Recessional: Immaculate Mary (Lourdes Hymn)
    Postlude: Grand Plein Jeu - Suite du Premier Ton - Jacques Boyvin

  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 393
    ICEL chant Mass in Greek/Latin
    Entrance hymn: Hail, Queen of heaven
    Introit sung as clergy enter the sanctuary
    Psalm On your right stands the queen in garments of gold
    Offertory: Mary immaculate, star of the morning
    Communion: Let all mortal flesh keep silent (tune: Picardy)
    Communion antiphon as above
    Salve, Regina plainchant sung at the Lady altar
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 429
    St. Mary's, Tampa

    ICEL Ordinary
    Processional: "Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above"
    Ps. 132 - "Lord, go up to the place of your rest..." (Schiavone) at Vigil
    Ps. 45 - "The queen stands at your right hand..." (Keil) at Masses of the Day
    Offertory: "Ave Maria" (Schubert) at Vigil, "Sing We of the Blessed Mother" at Day
    Communion: "Proclaim the Greatness of God" (Chepponis)
    At the conclusion of Mass, the priest went to the Marian shrine and honored it with incense as all sang the "Salve Regina" (simple tone), and then priest and servers retired to organ improv on the "Salve Regina"
  • at the BNSIC, Washington DC (typing this out to make myself feel better because i forgot to put it on our facebook page):

    Introit: Let us all rejoice in the Lord...
    Entrance hymn: Sing we of the blessed Mother (OMNE DIE)
    Ordinary: Latona, Mass of the Immaculate Conception
    Psalm: Latona, The queen stands at your right hand...
    Offertory: Palestrina, Assumpta est Maria
    Offertory hymn: Who is she ascends so high (ASSUMPTION NEW)
    Communion Antiphon: Beata viscera Maria
    Communion Procession: Batastini, My soul rejoices in my God
    Communion: Ugolini, Beata es Virgo Maria
    Marian Antiphon: Nestor, The Holy Mother of God is exalted in Glory
    Parsons Ave Maria
    Recessional hymn: Hail, holy Queen enthroned above (SALVE REGINA)

    Phew...
    Thanked by 2bangerman efof91
  • TroyL
    Posts: 8
    Sung Mass at St. John the Evangelist in Calgary. We're an ordinariate parish of the OCSP.

    Ordinary: Kyrie, Sanctus Benedictus, Agnus Dei from Mass X Alme Pater
    Gloria&Credo from Missa Simplicior  - Merbecke
    Prelude: Entree from Messe pour la compassion de la trés Ste. Vierge -Valenti
    Entrance Hymn: Sing we of the Blessed Mother (Abbot’s Leigh)
    Introit: Palmer & Burgess
    Gradual: Burgess
    Alleluia: Peñalosa & Burgess
    Offertory: Burgess
    Offertory Motet: Ave Regina Coelorum - Dufay
    Offertory Hymn : Sing of Mary, pure and lowly (Hermon)
    Communion Motet: Ave Maria - Fogliano
    Communion Hymn: Let all mortal flesh keep silence (Picardy)
    Salve Regina Mode V
    Recessional: Hail, holy Queen enthroned above  (Regina Coelitum)
    Postlude: Virgo Dei Genitrix Opus 45, No. 2 - Dupre

    The choir was in very fine form and sang an absolutely beautiful mass. Many thanks to the ever helpful Noel Jones who provides excellent resources (Catholic Choir Book & Catholic Organists Quarterly) as we build our parish music programme.
  • Bravo, fellow Ordinariate!

    Congratulations, too, on singing 'Sing of Mary' to something other that Pleading Saviour, which I have always found tiresome and maudlin.

    Also - who is, or are, Penalosa & Burgess?

    Too, I'm glad that you are singing Merbecke's Gloria and Creed. Here in Houston we can't seem to get out of that rut of singing the Creed recto tono - but at least we sing it!
  • TroyL
    Posts: 8
    Mr. Osborn,

    For several years I’ve much admired your posts and I'm so pleased to be able to answer your questions and make a few comments.

    1. Fr. Roland Palmer wrote the text of ‘Sing of Mary’. Its inclusion in the Canadian Book of Common Praise (where it made it’s debut) its a longish story, but Fr. Palmer insisted that it be sung to the tune Hermon. In Canada, Long LONG before the establishment of the Ordinariate, the text made its way into RC hymnbooks where it was sung to an awful tune that wasn't Hermon. I don’t know anything of its provenance in Episcopal or Catholic churches in America. I’m unfamiliar with the tune Pleading Saviour but I’ll look it up.

    2. A couple of years ago, I found an Alleluia by Francisco de Peñalosa (Missa „El Ojo) on CPDL. I thought it would be rather nice for the choir at St. John’s to learn. So I transposed it up into G Major, in modern notation, for SAB. Then I thought, why don’t we sing it on Solemnities in place the Burgess Alleluia and just add the psalm verse from Burgess in-between a repetition of the Alleluia? It works splendidly. The choir sings the Alleluia acapella and I accompany the trebles for the psalm verse on the choir manual. It was the choir’s introduction to polyphony and they loved it. We are now adding a different polyphonic motet to the repertoire every 4-6 weeks.

    3. In regards to the Creed, I’m all for local patrimony taking precedence, (see my comments on the Music and Anglican Patrimony blog) but in my experience recto tono is the way one ought to sing the Apostles Creed in the office, not the Nicene Creed in the Mass. We always sing the Merbecke Credo, though I have a feeling that Creed III will be introduced sometime in the future.

    I hope if I make it to Houston again, we can meet up at OLW.

    tL
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Speaking of the Ordinariate, Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio installed their new pastor at a pontifical mass yesterday evening on the feast. The video of the full mass is below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDzb3Ur3WaE
  • rogue63
    Posts: 410
    At St. Joseph in Palm Bay, FL:

    Simple Choral Gradual for Introit.


    https://youtu.be/eBJB8FzyqOA

    Same for Communion. Original offertory setting for SSA. Original psalm, too.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Hymnary.org lists 8 hymn tunes with the name HERMON. The one TroyL is referring to was composed by Charles Venn Pilcher (1879-1961). It has appeared in seven hymnals.

    Unfortunately one cannot see the music for this tune on Hymnary.org since it is still copyrighted. For more information:

    http://hymnary.org/tune/hermon_pilcher
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    Assumption and St Gregory, (Ordinariate Church) London.
    Solemn High EF Mass, sung jointly by the Ordinariate choir and EF schola.

    Propers sung in full according to G.R. (N.B. sadly not Gaudeamus etc.)
    Mass setting: Vittoria's Missa Ave Maris Stella
    Creed: Credo III with a polyphonic 'Et incarnatus'
    Motet for Offertory: Hymn Sub acta cedunt tartara
    Motet for Communion: Byrd's 'Assumpta Est Maria'
    Salve Regina (chant)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • There seems to be a variety of propers at the various masses posted here.
    At Walsingham, and I assume then throughout the Ordinariate, the propers were not those for any of the several pre-1960 Assumption sets given in Palmer-Burgess, or in Graduale Romanum. Our propers, whilst being from P-B, were taken from several different masses proper to earlier in the year. This is supposed to accord with what is in Divine Worship-The Missal, but I don't understand the rationale. This happens from time to time for other occasions as well.
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    EF Missa Cantata at St. Mary's, a diocesan parish in Independence, MO

    Full propers were sung
    Mass IX and Credo I
    Entrance Hymn was O Sanctissima
    Offertory Hymn after the chant was Concordis Laetitia
    Motet after Communion chant was Byrd's Ave Verum
    Closing Hymn was Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above
    Postlude was Bach Prelude in G (BWV 541)
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Improvisation
    Gaudeamus, GR
    Kyrie XVI
    Gloria VIII
    Psalm/Alleluia LCM
    Offertory LCM
    Hail Holy Queen
    Sanctus/Agnus Dei XVIII
    Communion LCM
    Salve Regina
    Improvisation
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    My list for Assumption got overruled, because it was also "welcome back" First Day of School mass at my old school. It was:

    ENTRANCE: Sounds of joy have put to flight (WURTEMBURG)
    KYRIE: Chant XVI with Cum Iublio Tropes, adpt. Myers
    GLORIA: Lee, adpt. Biery

    RP: The Queen stands (transcribed from BNSIC)
    ALLELUIA: One of the ones on the CCW website, can't remember name
    CREDO: to a Byzantine Chant
    UNIVERSAL: to a Byzantine Chant

    OFFERTORY: Who is she ascends so high (Assumption New)
    ORDINARY: German Mass (arr. Proulx)
    OUR FATHER: Intoned on piano (there is no organ in the gym), sung arr. Snow

    COMMUNION: Magnificat (Pawel Bebenek); Holy is his name (Talbot) (Had to throw a bone)
    MEDITATION: Salve Regina (Solemn Tone, sung by schola)
    RECESSIONAL: Hail, Holy Queen Enthroned Above (ALL VERSES)

    It was denied because they decided to skip the mass as the first day of school would be stressful enough.

    Also, quick question. Is "Who is she ascends so high" even theologically correct? I love the version done at BNSIC, but I got flack for programming it originally because it said the BVM ascended, not assumed.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • There is quite a distinctioon between ascension and assumption. I can see this being disallowed.

    ...stressful enough.

    Well, good Catholic educators would certainly not want good Catholic students to be stressed out by attending mass... and not just any mass, but a solemnity of the B.V.M. Please. let there be no stressful masses at a Catholic school.

    And about your kyrie: just how did you intend to insert cum jubilo tropes (tropes being illicit, cum jubilo or not) into a mass XVI kyrie... just curious.
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    Introit chant: Signum magnum (Gregorian, mode 7)
    Processional Hymn: Holy Mary, We Implore Thee (Abbot's Leigh)
    Mass Ordinary: Mass in Honor of St. Cecilia (Richard Fitzgerald)
    Psalm: Mueller
    Alleluia: Assumpta est Maria (Gregorian, mode 5)
    Offertory I: Assumpta est Maria (Gregorian, mode 8)
    Offertory II: Ave maris stella (Thomas Stoltzer)
    Communion I: Beatam me dicent (Gregorian, mode 6)
    Communion II: Magnificat (Francisco Soriano)
    Marian Antiphon: Salve Regina (Gregorian, mode 5)
    Post-communion hymn of praise: Hail, Holy Queen (Salve Regina cœlitum)
    Recessional: Prelude & Fugue in b minor (J.C.F. Fischer)
  • CGM -
    Many thanks for the Stoltzer.
    No one ever does him, which is a great shame.
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    And the piece is marvelous - brooding, contemplative, really wonderful.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    I was intending to use the tropes in place of the ones in the Missal (You came to heal the contrite of heart...), singing one before the intonation of K, C, and K. I don't like the ones in the Missal being sung on a single tone, and I am not a Cantor there.

    And no, good educators that include multiple nuns wouldn't want students to be stressed out by a mass that is considered one of two patronage feasts (Marian/Mater Dei), the other being the Immaculate Conception... (This was meant to be in purple)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Good thinking, Kyle.
    And, perhaps I should have put my ever-so-slight sarcasm about Catholic educators in purple - except that it's really not a laughing matter, is it!
    Keep up the good work.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • Antonio
    Posts: 43
    External Solemnity (according to the Brazilian liturgical calendar) of Assumption of Our Lady (E.F. Solemn Mass):

    Proper: Missa "Signum magnum" (Liber Usualis, p. 1601)
    Ordinary: Missa IX "Cum Jubilo"

    Cantus varii/Organ:

    Entrance procession: A. Kerckhoven, Vorspel (17. Versus 2di Toni, n. 85 (from Cocquiel Manuscript, 1741)

    Offertory:
    - O Prima Virgo prodita (ad First Vespers) (LB, p. 1600)
    - G. Cavazzoni, Ave maris stella (from Intavolatura, Recercari, etc, Libro Primo, 1542)

    Elevation:
    G. Cavazzoni, Kyrie Eleison (3.) (Missa de Beata Virgine) (from Intavolatura d'Organo, cioè Misse, Himmi, etc, Libro Secondo, 1550)

    Communion:
    - Salve Regina (solemn) (LB, p. 276), in alternatim with
    - P. Cornet, Salve Regina, MMN 10

    Recession:
    - Omni die (Cantus Selecti ex Libris Vaticanis, n. 123, p. 144)
    - D. Buxtehude, Praeludium ex E-g#, BuxWV 141
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Antonio
    Posts: 43
    Communion II: Magnificat (Francisco Soriano)
    Recessional: Prelude & Fugue in b minor (J.C.F. Fischer)


    Which the source for the Fischer Prelude/Fugue? Blumenstrauss, Ariadne Musica?
    As for the Soriano Magnificat, which tone?

    By the way, I usually sing Magnificat preceded by its antiphon for the feast, in the common mode. Sometimes, when time permits (hymn, antiphon and polyphony/organ versets not too long), preceded also by the prescribed Hymn. In my opinion, singing it as cantus vari just like part of the Vespers program gives a sense of completeness. Assumption of Our Lady formulary has two wonderful Magnifcat antiphons, one in mode 8. G for the 2nd Vespers (Hodie Maria Virgo caelos ascendit) and another one in mode 1. f (Virgo prudentissima) for the 1st Vespers.
    Thanked by 1janetgorbitz
  • St. Anthony of Padua, Jersey City, NJ - EF Missa Cantata

    Processional Hymn: Who Is She Ascends So High Stecker
    Gregorian Propers from the GR
    Ordinary: Byrd, Mass for 3 voices
    Credo: IV
    Offertory Motet: Ave Maria Arcadelt
    Communion Motet: Ave Vera Virginitas Desprez
    Marian Antiphon: Salve Regina Solemn Tone
    Recessional: Hail Holy Queen Salve Regina Caelitum
  • What is this???!!!
    Who Is She Ascends So High...

    The answer is 'no one'!
    There is no 'she' who ascended - only a 'he', namely Jesus.

    Is this yet another blatantly feminist attempt at godesshood for the BVM?
    She was assumed into heaven but did not ascend there. There is quite a difference.
    People who don't understand the niceties of Catholic faith and thought should not be writing hymns, or should have his or her thinking cap on when choosing them.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I remind myself occasionally to interpret others' words in the most reasonable manner possible, as an exercise of charity. In matters of the faith, that means interpreting them in the most orthodox manner possible.

    In the case of "Who is she ascends so high?", it is a *mistake* to claim that "ascends" is contrary to the orthodox teaching of the Church. To argue that "ascends" is contrary to "is assumed" requires arbitrarily *narrowing* the meaning of "ascends". To be sure, "ascends" is not specific about the cause of the upward movement. It is not a complete statement of the dogma, and yet it is not wrong.

    For readers interested in English heritage, the hymn was written in the 1500s by an English recusant; hence it is English Catholic patrimony.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Actually, the writer of this text was fined twice during the English Reformation for recusancy. He is a Catholic hero.

    I agree that there is some word confusion, Ascension (big A) vs. ascend (little a), but really, we all hope to ascend to heaven (little a). She has done so before us all, and helps to guide the Church there, according to Lumen Gentium.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I see my note and Chonak's overlapped.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    Chez moi: (St. Sebastian, Akron, 5PM EF)
    Campion Missal 908: Hail holy Queen enthroned above
    Mass IX, Credo 3, Propers
    At the Offertory: Perosi, Tota pulchra
    At Communion: Peter Philips: Salve Regina (1628)

    We did a Latin Mass at the Vigil, at a suburban church (1968) which doesn't usually have them, but did for the sake of the altar boys. We had a few guests from elsewhere in the D. of Cleveland, including an organist who saved me from playing the hymn (no other organ) Same program except the chant Ave Maria and Ave maris on place of the composed motets. And we had microphones, which was odd.
  • Alright - I stand corrected. But who, not knowing the near mystical provenance and antiquity of this hymn, in light of the murky and blurred theology of much of what is sung in our churches, not to mention the rampant feminism which reigns in some quarters, would have guessed its 'orthodoxy'. I will, though, fail to agree that 'ascent' and 'assumption' are synonyms, or that holding to a distinction inherent betwixt them is to 'narrow' the meaning of the former. (Or if it does, so what?! It might, as well, be said to bloat the meaning of the latter.) Nor should I want to bow to the permissive opinion that 'precision' and 'narrowness' are necessarily duplicates interchangeable in meaning, nor that either of them is, necessarily, a categorical negative.

    I have ever conceived that being 'assumed' and being 'ascended' are two distinct processes or events. Else, why are two purposefully distinct words used for each happening to two beings who are substantially different in being? A deeper issue here, though, is just what or where 'heaven' is and how one 'ascends' into it or is 'assumed' into it. Certainly such an act does not mean being drawn up into the sky where there is nothing but outer space - which, certainly, is not heaven. Cosmologically, there must be an answer consistent with orthodox Catholic faith and Biblical veracity. (Or must there?)
  • JL
    Posts: 171
    Else, why are two purposefully distinct words used for each happening to two beings substantially different in being?


    In German, there aren't. Both feasts are called Himmelfahrt, or "going to heaven" (and yes, it makes me giggle even at my age.)

    Or a more prosaic example: My office is on the third floor. Some days I take the stairs, and some days I get in the elevator and it gets me there. Either way, I have gone from Point A to a Point B at a higher elevation, and have ascended to my office either on my own steam or someone else's.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Agreed, MJO: "ascent" and "assumption" are not identical in meaning. But perhaps exploring the meaning of the two should be a separate thread.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Chonak stated:
    To be sure, "ascends" is not specific about the cause of the upward movement. It is not a complete statement of the dogma, and yet it is not wrong.

    Pius XII stated the complete dogma:
    ... we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

    The dogma takes no position on the question of whether the Blessed Mother suffered earthly death or not.

    Where does the dogma refer to an "upward movement"? I can't see how the dogma affirms the (still) rather popularly-held cosmology that heaven is up, and hell is down.

    The hymn appears to be included in only three hymnals. The meter of the text is 7575, a quite unusual meter. Leo Nestor has a setting, published in 1995 by E. C. Schirmer Publishing.

    No offense to Dr. Nestor, but I think the text of Sir John Beaumont is doggerel:

    1. Who is she ascends so high,
    Next the heav'nly King,
    Round about whom angels fly,
    And her praises sing?

    2. Who is she adorned with light;
    Makes the sun her robe?
    At whose feet the queen of night
    Lays her changing globe?

    3. This is she in whose pure womb
    Heaven's Prince remained;
    Wherefore in no earthly tomb
    Could she be contained.

    4. Heav'n she was, which held that fire,
    Whence the world took light,
    And to heav'n doth now as pire:
    Flames with flames unite.

    5. She that did so clearly shine,
    Our Day once begun,
    See how bright her beams decline,
    Sitting with the Sun.

    (That final "Sun" appears not to be a typo. But how could she be sitting with the sun, when the sun is her robe [stanza 2]?)
  • in stanza 2, reference is to "sun"
    in last stanza, reference is to "Sun" - could be the title of our Lord, 'Sun of Justice' (sol iustitiae), named in Malachi 4:2.
    "Sol iustitiae" is also found in (maybe 4th cent.) hymn Tota Pulchra Es.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Where does the dogma refer to an "upward movement"?

    The word "assume" has several meanings, one of which is "raise", so the image of an "upward" change has long been a part of the language surrounding the doctrine of the Assumption. But of course it would be a mistake to use the image in a naive physical sense. (We don't have historical testimonies to the event.)
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Baseball players look up into the sky after blasting a home run. I don't dispute the common notion that heaven is somewhere up there. Post-medieval painters usually depicted the Assumption of Mary as her being raised up into the clouds, rarely ascending under her own power but being borne up by cherubs. So, yes, an "upward movement" has long been a common understanding of the mystery.

    But in Pius XII's dogmatic definition, I do not detect any reference to this upward movement. Even the etymology of "to assume" - ad + sumere - is "to take to/towards" not "to take up."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Fr. Krisman, would you care to explain exactly why you think the text is doggerel?

    I'm not trying to be argumentative here. It's just that I've wondered for at least a decade now what your judgments are based on.
  • Fr Krismon is not alone in thinking the English recusant's text doggerel. As to 'why' - well, as the American Supreme Court Judge famously said of another matter, 'we can't define it, but we know it when we see it'.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Wouldn't it have to be in irregular rhythm to be doggerel?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Not necessarily, but that in itself is a pretty good clue.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    7.5.7.5. is not an irregular meter, but it is extremely rare. Only 9 texts with that meter have been included in the hundred of hymnals listed on hymnary.org.

    Why is it so rare? Perhaps because it lends itself to sing-song-y texts. Readers may want to check out some of those 9 texts at:

    http://hymnary.org/texts?qu=meter:7.5.7.5 in:texts in:texts
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 150
    I actually like the hymn, at least more than I do the songs sung in most churches (i.e. Hail Mary: Gentle Woman). It reminds me of texts such as "Adam lay ybounden" in that its grammar does not make sense today. "Adam lay", however, is much easier to sing, and the theology for "Who is she", while it probably made sense in the 1500s (I don't think the Assumption was an official feast day, at least not a HDoO), is murkier today.

    Oh wait, there's such thing as liturgical theology in parishes today? I thought that stopped when "Oceans" became the normal offertory.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Guilt by association is not the same as honest critique.
    Thanked by 2PaxMelodious JL