I do.

I wish I had it. On a good day I can hear a few pitches in my head and figure it out from there. Working on it.

I have relative pitch, but I don't hear "A" as a reference point. I hear "F" above middle "C" and use it for reference. Why "F?" I have no idea.

I have no idea.

I suspect that this is a Byzantine quirk.

I didn't know there was such a thing as PP until an organist transposed one of my solos during Mass, thinking no one would notice.
Not only is sightreading transposed music difficult, but sometimes just hearing a piece transposed makes it sound unfamiliar. The intervals are the same, but it can sound like an entirely different piece. It once took me 7 measures to recognize Sicut Cervus when sung in A major instead of the usual A flat.
And though I usually just sing the notes I see, I can also read somewhat well by intervals. It becomes difficult when the note on the page is close but not matching what I hear and it feels like a wrong note so I go back to singing what's written. And it is VERY hard to find my place when I'm lost!

Thank you for starting this conversation.

My director uses a tuning fork to find A. I use my ear. We almost never agree, but that has got me to reflect on something...

When I was younger, I used a tape recorder (so, I'm showing my age) to sending recordings across the Atlantic to my grandparents. When I listened to the voice (singing or spoken) it always sounded different than it did "live", as it were. When I listened to LPs (again, showing my age) I was always struck by how "out of tune" everything was. D-minor Tocattae and Fugae were not in D-minor, for example.

When I have helped my sons tune the violin, I find myself tuning "flat" from what most people think is proper, and my eldest has observed (by using a tuner on his phone?) that my sense of pitch is exactly a 1/2 tone "flat".


I was told at a young age that I had "perfect pitch", which as Jackson has observed, is more "absolute" than "perfect". I have always tuned using the same inner sense.

Is concert pitch changing, or is my perception set to the wrong modulation?

Interesting, Chris -
I think that a possible reason for recorded music's not matching the absolute norm may be the speed of the turntable, the speed of the recorder, and such things. Too, it could be that your precision in hearing inwardly and singing an absolute pitch may somehow be due to factors related to how many birthdays you have had. I've noticed myself that once in a while my 'absolute pitch' is actually a little flat, which it never ever used to be - and this irks me greatly.

About tuning forks and pitch pipes - I am always irritated that a choirmaster should need one of these intrusive and unbelievably tacky sounds to communicate pitch. A tuning fork does have in its favour that only those nearby can hear it, but a pitch pipe is a sterling signifer that 'we're at sea for a pitch'. Using them is very unprofessional. A chord on the organ or piano is far better and more honest. Worst of all is arpegiating the chord, which really does say 'we're dumb...really dumb'. Within liturgy one should never just play a chord but should improvise a few bars in the style of the piece to set the key. One of the most important things a choirmaster should teach his or her choir early on is to pick their notes out of a chord. And if any should have the temerity to hum his or her pitch they should be severely reprimanded - if not pitched out.

"And if any should have the temerity to hum his or her pitch they should be severely reprimanded."

The air seems a wee thin up there on Mount Olympus.

I have no idea.

I suspect that this is a Byzantine quirk.

Yes, it's probably what they tune to on Mount Athos.

Considering how often it seems that the performance practice of various motets is actually around between a half and whole step lower than "written," it's safe to assume that "your" (general) perfect pitch is arguably irrelevant, and something that "you" have to get over.

;)

.

yes... always had it but i have always explained it exactly as MJO... acute pitch memory. the thing that sometimes annoys me is that no matter where or when i listen to music the note names are all silently screaming their names in my mind. a kind of constant musical theory dissection taking place in my mind... it seems to be an addiction from which i will never escape.

I always thought synaesthesia involved one sense triggering another. Francis, do you mean that you automatically analyze chords and pitches, thereby distracting yourself from just listening (which also happens to me)? Try listening to choirs tuned a quarter tone up!

I also have synaesthesia in various forms to a slight extent, and the key of a piece makes a huge difference in it a character (what do others with PP think?). But I also know some RP people with synaesthesia. Are those with PP more likely to have it?

MJO... yea. that is pretty accurate. as a result I cannot bear to attend a Mass where dreck is being performed or I will lose my mind. I sometimes have to walk out or I become angry and depressed. This also happens listening to Mozart or Beethoven. I can't bear the repetitive I, IV, V, I constantly hammering at my psyche.

I share your abhorrence of unfortunate music, Francis. A musical mind will begin inevitably to assimilate music. It can turn off to it or tune it out for only so long. It then becomes existentially imperative for one to escape, the moreso if it is being gratuitously broadcast in one's presence (such as in a church) by smiling people who are acting like nothing is wrong. Often people have taken a look at me and respectfully turned their undesirable music off. Interesting, isn't it, that they really do know the difference and actually prefer the regretable for themselves.

Also, like Francis, I often perceive structural relationships and procedures in even quite sophisticated musical forms. I don't suppose for a minute that we are lacking in company in this. With polyphony, of course, one literally 'sees' linear procedures and relationships, whereas with basically homophonic structures one becomes acutely aware of the skeletal harmonic edifice. It is too bad, though, that this prevents Francis from being delighted with the absolute grace and genius of the melody, rhythm, counterpoint, and colour which these structures support. If all one hears is the harmonic skeleton, one is really missing the music! This is rather like observing a classical architectural facade and dismissing it as just another post and lintel system, while failing to apprehend the exquisite beauty of its Ionic or Corinthian vesture. (Or viewing the shape of a pricelessly embroidered antique chasuble and being vexed because it's just another chasuble-shaped vestment - while being oblivious to the intricate embroidery crafted by the most choice Belgian nuns which it displays.)

...actually prefer...

That's because they value emoting over aesthetics. They aren't focused on chords. Only that it's catchy, has clever words, and has a backbeat implied if not outright played by a drum set. Any song or piece of music that emphasizes beats 2 & 4 in common meter seem to disrupt and distract rather than promote prayerfulness.

I've pitched a few perfect softball games in the past, but honestly, it was slow-pitch....and that's as close as I'll ever get.

Absolute Pitch. It has it's plusses and minuses. Sometimes saving the day, and sometimes just a curse. When I was playing bass trombone every day and night with the L.A. Phil or on Movie calls, or teaching, I had dead on absolute pitch. For me, it was a matter of resonance and pitch memory. When I was playing trombone in the same register as my voice, more or less, I was very accurate: about 100:1. This was further focused by using Chris Leuba's 'Intonation system', basically a Just Intonation format. Now that I've been retired for 10 years, and not playing nearly as much, my absoluteness had dropped almost a half step. Absolute?: not so much. When I go through fits of playing the horn again, my old memory/resonance returns. This has diminished somewhat by not playing the trombone as much. Over the years I even found out what key resonated me. Not A, but Ab. Beats me why. Some kind of resonance thing. I even had an Alpenhorn made by Julius Emenegger, the famous Alphornmacher, IN Ab and used my trombone mouthpiece. The minus is that I find it very difficult to read a piece of music and sing it in any other key other than a written. As a trombonist, I could read treble, Bb transposed, Eb transposed, mezzo soprano, alto, tenor, vocal tenor 8va treble clef, baritone (to a degree), horn in F, and bass clef with fluency. How about 'D' horn? Just put in a transposed 'c' alto clef. I was once standing backstage waiting for the concert to start with the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto. It had two horn parts and no trombone parts. The second horn player was no where to be found. The personnel manager was tearing his hair out trying to find a 2nd horn player to start the concert. I said, "i'll play second horn on my bass trombone, but it will cost you." "Anything; just get on the stage", was his reply. I sat down on the second horn chair to find the part was, indeed in D. Yep, alto clef to the rescue. This is the only way I could 'read' in a transposition other than as written: just find the appropriate clef to transpose it into my language. Now, about the pitch in my old orchestra, and in most of the big time orchestras in the U.S. It was A=442 for the 38 years I was there. Much of this had to do with tradition and the baseline pitch of the oboes. They have a very small window of pitch variance. So, the Mountain would always tune to Mohamed. Also, the big Steinway pianos that we used could only be cranked up so far. I find the three 'absolute pitch' people in my Compline groups are each in a different place, and therefore rather inflexible as to pitch. One is about 22 cents sharp; another is about 8 cents flat and yet another is about 80 cents flat (that would be me of late). That's just the way they're tuned. My Rx is to keep pushing the pitch up or transpose to another clef. Seems like a roundabout way to get there. I sat in the row behind a section of trumpets in the orchestra that all had absolute pitch. None were tuned to A=442. The section leader was about 6 cents flat; consistently flat. The second player was about 17 cents sharp. I consider this a plus in German Mid Classic literature (Schubert/Schumann) with the trumpets in octaves because of a concept I call 'octave compression', where the lower octave sounds sharp by itself compared to the composite of the two; and the upper octave sounds flat, by itself compared to the composite. They all had such a centered, hot, focused tone that they could blow right past any wayward 'beats' in the chord. This really comes into play with my ladies group, Voces angelorum. Since we have a row of tenors singing the lowest part, I'm constantly on them to sing sharper the lower they go. Every time, for a while, when they would go down by steps or other intervals, below low F, they would go too far going downhill, pitch-wise. Male basses don't have that woe, but the lowest ladies are confronted with the abyss and they've never lived there. They're finally getting the picture.So, to wrap it up, absolute pitch is no big deal and may be a negative depending. I would much rather have a Quire full of singers with good, relative pitch.
jefe aka Jeff Reynolds

...that tuned by ear....

A true artist!
Tuning by ear is nowadays much less common than once it was. I'm always rather contemptuous of a tuner who needs one of those electronic tuning devices to buzz his notes and do the tuning for his imperfectly pitched ears. If possible I will shun them in favour of someone who 'knows his pitches'. This may be more true of organ tuners than piano ones.

...won't necessarily help.

Of course you are quite correct, Liam. Contempt rarely never has made a friend, but still, there are some things worthy of contempt, and a tuner who can't tune without a tuner is one of them. He or she will not be helped with or without contempt and should be doing something for which he has genuine talent.

Somewhere in my diary I have written that 'no one ever looked up to someone who was looking down on him'. So yes, you are right - we should try lovingly to to correct - but some will ornerily withstand correction with all their might - which is contemptible.

Andrew, I used to be somebody. And, BTW, it's Perantoni. Both Dan and Dee seem to be eternal, still showing up here and there in the brass world. How are you associated with Musica Sacra? Are you an organist or choir director? The only thing that makes much difference to me now is Compline. It's a weird devotion for a former brass player. Then again, maybe not. For 4 decades I conducted and arranged for the Moravian Trombone Choir, a pickup band of sopranino, soprano, alto, tenor and bass (and K-baB) trombonists, sometimes numbering 100 players, who filled kind of an Amerikanishe version of the German Posaunenchor. So, it was a short hop back to the vocal ensemble singing the same music in the same voicing. Which wind instrument is closest to the human voice? Yep, you guessed it. It's the trombone; and even more blending, the sacbut. I find many of the tunes I used with the posaunenchor work well in the ORIGINAL format: the vocal choir, especially the ATTB voicing. Alright, I think I've squeezed this topic enough.
jefe

Following Mr. Osborn off topic—

I had never considered this before, but the 'cello is often described as the string instrument closest to the human voice, and this is because of it's warm tone but also at least largely because of it's range (C—c''+, which encompasses most of the range of the human voice). The tenor trombone has a range of BB-flat to b'–flat (okay, that was from memory, and I'm not a brass guy, but I think I'm close!!) , making it the "'cello" of the brass family, and it is certainly more 'vocal' than woodwinds with similar range (bassoon). Although perhaps a case could be made for a well-played bass clarinet?

(Edited—I really should not attempt communication in any form prior to coffee in the morning.)

Come on now. Why so Euro-centric? The obvious choice is bongos.

Osborn,
I think you have me there. It's not a boast, just an historical observation. Many composers since the beginning have gravitated toward men's voices with trombones. It may that until Adolph Sax invented the valve around 1820 trombone was the only chromatic brass instrument that could accompany voices. I thought long and hard about the violoncello being a similar sound to the human voice. Yes, but not with that vibrato: not in Musica Sacra. I really cannot think of any other instrument, short of a Synth that is any closer. Here is a snippet of one who has broached this subject: "Relating Voices to instruments. As a guide to developing a concept, the instrumental arranger can better understand the complexities of range, tone quality, and the subtleties of voice texture by relating these to musical instruments. His knowledge of brass instruments may come to his aid when he relates trumpets to women's voices, and trombones to men's voices. Although trombones and men's voices are not identical, they are similar enough to help understand the voices of men."