Liturgy of the Hours - Palm Sunday Vespers II
  • So, I am trying to put together Palm Sunday second vespers, in english, according to the "new" LOTH (ICEL & Catholic Book Publishing). Fr. Samuel Weber has a great little booklet for Palm Sunday Vespers, but I am trying hard not to use tones from Mundelein psalter. My goal was to locate gregorian settings of the antiphons and then set the psalms in english to gregorian psalm tones.

    This has proven to be very difficult.

    I purchased the Antiphonale Romanum II with the intent to take the english antiphons and set them as closely as I could to the chant in the Antiphonale..... except it seems that in many cases they are completely different. ICEL did not translate but simply re-created the antiphons out of nothing? Am I crazy here?

    Here is an example..
    Palm Sunday Evening Prayer II Antiphon I: "Christ was scourged and treated with contempt, but God's right hand has raised him up."
    From the Antiphonale: "Appropinquabat autem dies festus, et quaerebant principes sacerdotum quomodo iesum in terficerent, sed timebant plebem."

    These are simply not even close to the same thing.

    What's going on here?? Am I nuts or is this a disaster?

    EDIT: Also shoutout to @awilliams for the "English Vesperal" posted a while back. This will be extremely helpful with the psalm tones, chanting the reading, etc. though it does not have Palm Sunday II in it.

  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,023
    No, you are not nuts--at least from what I can tell here. What you have discovered is that the post-conciliar Office has the same problem as the post-conciliar Mass: The spoken texts are not the same as the sung texts.

    ICEL translated the Breviarium Romanum (or Liturgia Horarum, as it's called now), not the Antiphonale. Just as ICEL translated the Missale Romanum, not the Graduale. The antiphons translated by ICEL for the LotH (Berviary) are correct (for the most part -- don't forget this is still the old "lame-duck" ICEL, and has the same issues as the older Sacramentary), they are simply based on the antiphons in the Latin Breviary, which are, generally speaking, newly composed texts (it's the same reason why the vast majority of Introits and Communions in the Missal don't match the equivalent chants in the Gradual), whereas the Antiphonale Romanum II is a set of authentic chants assembled according to the Ordo Cantus Oficcii. There are, btw, some neo-gregorian settings of the Latin antiphons from the breviary, but the authentic chants found in the Antiphonale are, of course, better.

    This thread might be of interest: http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/14622/neo-gregorian-antiphons/p1
  • @salieri thanks a lot for the help. I will take a look at the thread.

    What I still can't comprehend is how the antiphon texts differ from the breviary to the antiphonale. I get that they are two different resources and now we have the issue of ICEL in the middle of it, but in between the translation from Latin, how the antiphons can be so completely different baffles me.

    I suppose what's done is done, and we can only hope (and pray) that "they" make it better in the future.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,023
    Another discrepancy that you'll find is that when the Antiphonale is followed--which is the official book to be used when Vespers is sung [in Latin]--during the time per Annum (Ordinary Time) there is no antiphon for the New Testament canticle, but there is during Advent, Christmas, and Easter.
  • dhalkjdhalkj
    Posts: 43
    There is an antiphon for Vespers I, but in Vespers II I'm guessing the response Alleluia, alleluia. written out after every verse is to be considered as the Antphon. It is certainly additional to the original biblical text of the canticle.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 586
    I have been preparing booklets for English Vespers, slowly working my way through the calendar. Here is my collection for Palm Sunday, formatted like my patron wants it.
  • @richard thanks a lot! I will almost certainly use your antiphons and responsory (with your permission of course). They are very easy to sing and well pointed.
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 586
    Feel free.
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,023
    At Vespers II, the rubric in the Antiphonale translates as:
    During the season of the year the New Testament Canticle [from Rev. the Wedding of the Lamb] is sung in the manner of a Responsory with Alleluia. During other times it is sung as a Troparion, with Alleluia and an Antiphon.

    So, in other words you sing, during Ordinary Time:
    V/: First half of V. 1, R/: alleluia. V/: Second half of V. 1, R/: alleluia, alleluia.
    V/: First half of V. 2, R/: alleluia. V/: Second half of V. 2, R/: alleluia, alleluia. Etc.
    V/: Glory be.... Son, R/: alleluia. V/: And to the Holy Spirit, V/: alleluia, alleluia.
    V/:As it was.... , R/: alleluia. V/: And will be forever. Amen, R/: alleluia, alleluia.

    But during Advent, Christmastide, and Paschaltide:
    The Antiphon * given according to the proper of time.
    V/: First half of V. 1, R/: alleluia. V/: Second half of V. 1, R/: alleluia, alleluia.
    V/: First half of V. 2, R/: alleluia. V/: Second half of V. 2, R/: alleluia, alleluia. Etc.
    V/: Glory be.... Son, R/: alleluia. V/: And to the Holy Spirit, V/: alleluia, alleluia.
    V/:As it was.... , R/: alleluia. V/: And will be forever. Amen, R/: alleluia, alleluia.
    The Antiphon given according to the proper of time.
  • @salieri is this for ordinary form LOTH or extraordinary form divinum officium
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,023
    OF, according to Antiphonale Romanum II. EF Vespers has five psalms: 109, 110, 111, 112, 113 (Vulgate numbering). The NT Canticle was a creation of LotH.

    What we have here is another example of the Ordinary Form's manifold discrepancies between the texts of the spoken liturgy and the sung liturgy. (The OF Mass has the same problem.)
    Thanked by 1Settefrati93