Beer and Liturgy
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,258
    My general maxim:
    I like German beer and English liturgy and never the other way around.

    However, I have some English beer I like.

    image


    What German liturgical music should I listen to while drinking it?
  • Why, of course...
    The high church ones who ape the Anglicans.

    I was told some years ago that evensong was 'all the rage' in Sweden.
    I've even seen it being done (not all that well) somewhere in Teutonic lands on youtube.

    More seriously, I should think that something grand by Schutz would be just right.

    If your penchant is for Samuel Smith's various brews, that makes you a friend of mine - though I much prefer stout.
    (Someone once told me that the custom in England was to mix stout half and half with normal beer.
    This sounds weird to me and I don't do it - and I hope that they don't.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 143
    Some people in the south of England mix stout with Ribena (blackcurrant juice) or even champagne, when it is called Black Velvet. They also mix lager with lemonade.
    Happily, Tadcaster is in Yorkshire, where one would expect that such effete nonsense would not be tolerated.
    I suggest that some of the stirring hymn tunes by John Bacchus Dykes (a native of Hull therefore a Yorkshireman), preferably played by a brass band, could be enjoyed while sampling this beer. Tunes like Melita, Nicaea, Gerontius etc.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 372
    I don't recall seeing stout and bitter mixed in London. When dark Mild was more available, mild and bitter mixed was a declining fashion. The impecunious could once be heard ordering a half pint of this half and half mixture, in the local pronunciation: 'arf 'n 'arf 'n 'arf . There are signs of Mild reviving even across the pond, see.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    Adnams do a cracking Mild called 'Old Ale' sadly they only brew it September to December. We will be drinking Oyster Stout after Mass on Sunday!
  • Arrrgh!, Viola -

    One is always somewhat astonished at the tasteless things (effete nonsense as you rightly call it) that the reputedly tasteful and 'proper' English do.
    Beer and lemonade???
    Horrid.
    (Gauche, too!)
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071

    What German liturgical music should I listen to while drinking it?


    I will pray to good St. Guinness for an answer.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,373
    On a side topic -
    If you've ever wondered about the history of beer, here is a fantastic book in PDF form by one of my favorite professors from when I was at university.
    http://scholar.uwindsor.ca/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1025&context=llcpub
  • Well, when all is said and done I don't suppose it's any worse for a Briton to mix beer and lemonade that it is for certain types 'over here' who will (this is actually true! really!) without the slightest qualm mix coke or sprite with the finest and most exquisite of Bourbons and Scotches.
    Still and all - we expect, somehow, better examples from our cousins 'over there'.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    Speaking of mixing ... what about "depth charges" ?
  • .
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    Usually done in a pub. A mug or tankard of beer is drawn, and a shot glass of distilled spirits (could be whiskey, gin, vodka, ... ) is held above the nearly full mug. The shot glass of spirits is dropped into the beer (often on a signal, if several are doing depth charges at once), and the mixture is then drunk as rapidly as possible ("chugged"), at least in a pub game format. The first to slam his/her mug back own on the table is the winner of the round.
  • MarkS
    Posts: 121
    In these parts that's known as a 'boilermaker,' and if it's Guiness and Irish whiskey it's known affectionately in Boston as an 'Irish Car Bomb.'

    Not that I would have any experience with such things.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 979
    Forget British beers....Belgian monk beers are THE BEST. Give me Chimay, Trappistes de Rochefort, St. Bernadus or Westmalle.
    Thanked by 1SrEleanor
  • ....and Stella Artois has the cleverest advertisements!
  • Beer and lemonade???
    Horrid.
    (Gauche, too!)
    not to mention... a hugely unappetizing color. :-x
  • donr
    Posts: 913
    Boilermaker is what we've always called as well Charles.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    Yes, I've heard them called Boilermakers, too. But I'm older than the rest of you!! LOL
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,245
    In Berlin, Germany

    Berliner Weisse mit Schuss - Sour wheat beer made tasty with a shot of raspberry (Himbeer, red), woodruff (Waldmeister, green) or other syrups. Served with a straw.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • A local Baptist(!) church I drive past daily advertises "Beer and Hymns" at a nearby watering hole. Seems to be about once a month. I'm pretty sure the watering hole doesn't have a pipe organ.
  • Liam
    Posts: 2,872
    That reminds me of the old Southern saw about how to tell the difference between Catholics and Baptists - the Catholics say hello to each other in the liquor aisle/store....
  • I have a friend who was born Baptist, became Anglican, became an Anglican priest, became a Catholic priest of what has become the Ordinariate, was for several years the pastor of Walsingham, and is now a diocesan priest in another diocese, whose Baptist mother, having had a sip of the wine he brought home, would ask him to bring a bottle home for her, but not to let anyone see him buying it or bringing it into the house lest she be disgraced. This same friend told me that it was well known in drinking circles that Baptist tea was what a Baptist would order at a drinking establishment, Baptist tea being understood to be Whiskey.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • Liam
    Posts: 2,872
    That's like when restaurant staff go out after closing shop to restaurants in Chinatown (in Boston - where our local liquor laws prescribe a relatively early closing time for service of alcohol but where Chinatown places tend to still be open) to order ... cold tea....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071
    I've enjoyed seeing Baptists skulk into and out of a liquor store. They truly don't like to be seen. It is also amusing to watch them buying lottery tickets and scratching them off outside to see if they have won - gambling for those who don't know that is a Baptist sin. My great aunts of the Protestant wing of the family used to enjoy a bit of snuff, which they ran and hid at the sight of the preacher pulling into the the driveway. One wouldn't have thought elderly ladies could move that fast.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • Isn't Bach German? Did he produce anything liturgically suitable for our Mass?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071
    Isn't Bach German? Did he produce anything liturgically suitable for our Mass?


    I often say no, but more because I really don't like Bach. Many - well, most - of his pieces are far too lengthy to fit within a typical U.S. mass without adaptations. You can do it, if you really want. If it has text, it is a good idea to examine it first and see if Bach's Lutheran theology fits Catholic theology. I prefer to use French compositions that were written for the mass, since they tend to be shorter and a more easy fit.

    Now I will be castigated and condemned by the Bach fanatics.
  • Words from scripture are inherently Catholic, no matter who put them to music. So, the answer to your question is 'yes'. However, the parameters laid out just above by Charles are smartly examined. There may be cantata arias that could be appropriate during communions on certain ocassions. If I had the resources I wouldn't shrink from Bach's motet, Lobet den Herren, as an offertory anthem on a great feast day. But for its length I would do his gorgeous motet (for double choir) Singet dem Herrn. Most, though, of Bach's choral works somehow just would not really compliment the mass. Organ works are another matter.

    I think that it is verging on blasphemy to question the Catholicity of Bach's oeuvre that presents no textual difficulties. Bach was created by God himself as one of the highest and most exalted musical creators who ever lived. Rejecting him because he wasn't Catholic is an affront to his creator. Is not history (not to mention the 'here and now') full of Catholics whose lives or deeds were wicked and not even Christian, let alone Catholic. Who, then, are we to judge? 'By their works shall ye know them.' Examine what his works were and use them when they fittingly adorn the mass - and God, who gave them to Bach, will be pleased.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 270
    I prefer the gifts of Christ the Meadgiver (an actual title of Christ in the early middle ages).
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Hmmm, Vilyanor -
    Let's see - we have the Church of Christ the Good Shepherd,
    of Christ the Redeemer
    of Christ the King (which happens to be what the Anglican 'Christ Church' is short for)
    and now, of Christ the Meadgiver

    I rather like that.
    Thanked by 1Vilyanor
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 408
    On the old comedy show 'Hee Haw', they had a Baptist preacher in guest shots occasionally (he was the brother of our next door neighbor, but that's not important). I remember his definition of a good Baptist - one who doesn't drink in front of his preacher!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071
    Christ the Meadgiver? Why not? We have Lorraine the cookie giver and Mary the coffee bringer. ;-)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    I really don't like Bach.

    I can understand saying this about Mozart, but Bach? I think you're pulling the forum's leg.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071
    No, Kathy, I really am not fond of Bach. I tend to agree with his contemporaries who didn't like him all that much, either. They did like his son, CPE, much better. Bach is structured music that is often performed too mechanically, although I think that is inherent in the music itself. I can play Bach, but rarely do. Even then, it is done for someone else who likes him.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,663
    My understanding is a Boilermaker is one of two things: 1. a student of Purdue University, or 2. a drop shot involving a beer, and a shot of whisky.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    From Saint Wikipedia:
    There are a number of ways to drink an American boilermaker:

    1. Traditionally, the liquor is drunk in a single gulp and is then "chased" by the beer, which is sipped.

    2. The liquor and beer may be mixed by pouring or dropping the shot into the beer. The mixture may be stirred, if desired. If the actual shot glass is dropped into the beer glass, the drink is known as a depth charge.

    3. The liquor may be poured directly into an open beer bottle or can after removing some of the beer.

    I rest my case.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • It's true, Kathy, Charles is on record as not liking Bach.
    None of us, after all, are perfect.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071
    Actually, I do like the trio sonatas. Fugues, not so much.
  • Liam
    Posts: 2,872
    Charles

    Interesting: I suspect a hefty cause for your take on Bach is that your encounter with him appears to be primarily as a performing organist expected to have mastered a number of his works for organ. There's a certain dynamic not uncommon among solo instrumentalists having mastered the core of the "typical" repertoire.

    I am no keyboardist: I trained in horn for a decade, and became an amateur chorister for another generation. So my encounters with Bach are as a singer and as an audience member. And therefore, when I think of Bach, I first think of his more lyrical works, less his "mathematical" works. I never, ever, tire of the Aria of the Goldberg Variations - the variations, I can tire from, but not the Aria. Many of the arias of the St John Passion, the final chorus and final chorale - have the effect of a transporting, liminal, exaltation that is rare in other music (of other named composers, William Byrd is most likely to elicit a similar transformation from me). And so forth in other works.

    Whereas, as I've noted in other threads where we get into these things, the transporting joys of Mozart are in ensemble performance together - instrumental and operatic especially. For solo instrumentalists who only perform occasionally with others, the joys of Mozart are likely to remain opaque. Mozart was certainly capable of making big and deep musical arguments - it's just that the patrons of his times were weary of that and elicited something different.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071
    Perhaps so. I remember playing the Passacaglia and Fugue in C Minor at the request of an instructor. My thoughts were, "Lord, does this da*n thing ever end?" LOL. I enjoy, although not really Bach, playing the Widor Mattheus-Final from "Bach's Memento." Good Bach theme, but Widor did well with it.

    I suspect the fact that I never "warmed up" to the trackers and tonality of the German organ clones that were the rage when I was in school during the dark ages had something to do with my dislike for Bach. I hated those instruments and still do.

    Mozart has to be appreciated in context, as you indicate. He doesn't come across well when you take him out of his context.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 2,872
    I am fond of the sound of French organs. Old French organs. And I preferred a brighter style of horn playing than the doppelbock-trippelbock Germanic style.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 3,845
    the doppelbock-trippelbock Germanic style

    Hmm, never encountered such a brew. Not gonna today.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,071
    Today it is Guinness all the way.

    Thanked by 2CHGiffen bhcordova
  • Liam
    Posts: 2,872
    And why would ye be forgetting Murphy's?

    It needn't be so bitter, don'thchye see?

    Why would ye be wanting to go to Dublin when you can be in Cork?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee_N3g4ORLk
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • And for those of us not blessed to hail from Ireland?