To whom should we pray in the liturgy?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 463
    New thread to get this out of CantingEaster choral piece
    The Catechism of the Catholic Church says this.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 463
    But as I said, others may be addressed, including each member of the congregation :-
    Ideo precor beatum Mariam ... et vos fratres orare pro me ad Dominum Deum nostrum
    But only to ask them to add their prayers to mine. This clearly sets us, saints and me and you, on a distinctly different level from the Almighty.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,783
    Yes, because you're not praying to Mary, any of the Saints, nor the person standing next to you, you're asking for them to pray for you. This is not the same as praying to them.
  • madorganist
    Posts: 202
    I think this came out of the Easter choral piece recommendation thread, no? As others have pointed out, Our Lady, the angels, and the saints are invoked and addressed at various points during the Mass in the Roman rite. In the Byzantine rite, there is a Marian hymn during the Divine Liturgy: "It Is Truly Meet" (St. John Chrysostom) or "All of Creation" (St. Basil). Regardless of whether or not the bishops have said anything about Marian hymns or prayers during Mass, I'm at an EF parish and would ignore most USCCB liturgical suggestions anyway. I perceive the same sort of mentality at work here that says we shouldn't sing Eucharistic hymns during Communion unless the emphasis is on reception, not adoration, of the Blessed Sacrament - "Ave verum corpus" bad, "Take and Eat" good. Solemn nonsense!
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 463
    Yes, amended.
    The ancient tradition to which MJO refers is cited by the bishops of England&Wales in their commentary on GIRM3 with reference to no.54 the formulae to end the Collect.
    Regardless of what bishops may have said about Marian prayers, GS gives the Magnificat as always available as a chant at communion (with antiphon My soul magnifies thy holy name).
    NB GS first edition predates the OF i.e. supplements the 1962 books (arguably).
  • WGS
    Posts: 192
    I use the expression "pray to God", whereas on the other hand "pray through Mary and other saints.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,043
    Prithee [I pray thee], why the distinction?

    I pray to Mary -- I pray/beg/entreat her to pray/beg/entreat God on my behalf. There's something about the "pray to God"/"pray through the saints" distinction that bothers me, like it's just a way of placating the Protestants who say we worship the saints. In fact, it seems more like the Anglican Bishop William Forbes's 'advocation of the saints' theology: "asking the saints to pray with them and on their behalf, not praying to them." (c.f. https://workingthebeads.com/2016/08/26/the-non-competitive-mary/)
    Thanked by 1madorganist
  • I will repeat briefly here what I have left as a final offering on the other thread.

    Several have put forth the confiteor as an example of address on our part to each other and to the saints and angels. Just as this incidence should not be taken lightly, neither should it be exaggerated in its relationship to the remainder of the sacred ritual text. This penitential rite is at the very beginning of the mass and is equivalent to the prayers at the foot of the altar in the old rite. Peculiar to it is that it is the single part of the mass in which the focus is on us and our unworthiness, and God's boundless mercy. It is an act of cleansing which prepares us quickly for the dramatic change of focus in the developing acts of praise, assimilation of holy writ, offering of sacrifice, and converse with God. The language of the penitential rite is, in relation to that of the remainder of the rite, unique to it. At no other part of the ritual text is any being other than God himself addressed directly or petitioned in any way. The entire mass, as is borne out by a careful digestion of the ritual text, is a gorgeous intercourse betwixt God's people and God himself.

    The text, most notably in the canon, makes clear that we are in communion and memory of the company of saints, the BVM, the angels, but it also quite clearly does not address any of them directly, nor ask anything of them. They, like we, are participants in the mass; they, like we, have their gaze solely on the All Holy.

    In the matter of the Universal Prayers, there are examples of such in the Roman Missal which should be taken as paradigmatical for any other locally composed ones. They reflect what the Church envisions as normative in these prayers, which, like the ritual text itself, are addressed to God alone.

    Then, there is the matter of the language of the propers, which, when they quote ave Maria and such, may seem to address the BVM or some other saint. The propers are not prayers. They are quotations from scripture which illuminate the day's teaching, its theological import, or relate a Biblical event which is pertinent to the particular celebration. Ave Maria, then, as an offertory antiphon, is not a prayer, but the recollection of the angelic greeting and encounter, a recollection which illustrates powerfully the celebratory focus of the day. As it is with Ave Maria as an offertory antiphon, so is it with other texts which might seem to be prayer to a being other than God, but, in reality, function as important illustrative scriptural exemplars.

    The matter of ancient sequences and such has been put forth as 'precedent' for the invocation or entreaty of saints for favours within the mass. Salieri has sagely pointed out that these sequences were pointedly suppressed at Trent. And, with good reason: they, insofar as they sometimes invoked saints, were not representative of what the Church believed appropriate at mass. The sequence as a poetic form often tells a story, relates theological truths, sometimes has dialogue, and, in the mediaeval era, very often spoke of its subjects in absolutely unreal and exaggerated language, language which the Church, wisely, judged improper at mass.

    Others have pointed out that various orthodox rites contain prayers to the BVM. This is a red herring: They do indeed. But, the Roman rite does not! Based on the witness of the sacred ritual text itself, one can only conclude that prayer at any point or in any fashion to any other than God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Ghost within the mass is a gratuitous and presumptuous attachment upon the mass as the Catholic Church understands it and expresses it in its inviolable ritual text.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 420
    I assume you are only talking about the Latin Rite and not the Eastern Rites.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 94
    Excuse my ignorance, but where are the communion antiphons for the Immaculate Conception (Glorious things are spoken of you, O Mary, for from you arose the sun of justice, Christ our God.) found in scripture? Or the Offertory Antiphon for the Vigil of the Assumption (You are blessed, O Virgin Mary, for you have borne the creator of everything.You gave birth to him who made you and remain for ever a virgin.)? These do not seem to be in the bibles I have... Sorry, just trying to clarify.

    And in the text for the prayers of the faithful we use around me, the last text reads, "In communion with the BVM, Mother of God, and all the saints without ceasing, let us pray to the Lord..." Would this be considered improper?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 463
    The GR gives scriptural references for the antiphons, where these exist (so does the Missal). Not all antiphons have scriptural sources, particularly where like the Assumption the dogma is derived by theologians, and not explicit in scripture. The antiphon at communion for the Immaculate Conception is derived from Luke's account of the annunciation and visitation with an added sprinkling of language from Ps 86(87):3.
    Joining our prayers to those of the saints and angels is not problematic, we are told to do it at the end of every Preface.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kyle -
    Astute observations!
    They are not in the Bible.
    By far, most propers are from the psalms or other scriptures.
    Others, relatively few, but, for example, those for Corpus Christi, whose texts were composed by Thomas Aquinas, are non-scriptural.

    I, of course, knew that the zealous and enterprising soul would ferret out some exceptions to disprove the normative thesis which I share with many others, including bishops. These few are what they are, and do not represent what is quite obviously meant to be normative. Viewed in the light of the vast body of the propers they are glaringly exceptional.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • madorganist
    Posts: 202
    155. What are some appropriate Supplementary Offertories?
    Hymns and motets in honor of the Blessed Sacrament always make appropriate Supplementary Offertories. The same may be said of hymns and motets in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary and especially the Anthem (Antiphon) that honors Mary in each ecclesiastical season. (Fr. George V. Predmore, Sacred Music of the Catholic Church, 1950 ed., emphasis mine)
    I'm not old enough to say how typical this is of preconciliar practice, but I wish to note here that the famous Solemn High Mass video narrated by Fulton Sheen features the Regina caeli at the offertory. Perhaps some of our older members can fill us in on the prevalence of Marian motets and hymns during the Mass in former times.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 620
    I get the abstract argument here, but it does not seem to correspond to the way the Church has actually prayed through the centuries. True, Our Lady and the saints are never directly addressed in the liturgical prayers, but their intercession is invoked both in the Roman Canon and the collects of their own feast days. Also, the Marian antiphons for many centuries have been a part of Compline. Singing the Ave Maria or other Marian prayers as motets are in much the same spirit. A sung motet is not meant to be strictly a liturgical text so I don't see that it has to conform to the same principles as the orations said by the priest.

    This reminds me of relatively recent the directive that the tabernacle and alter have to be physically separate, based on the principle that the alter of repose and the altar of sacrifice should not be confused. The logic is there, but it seems like a solution in search of a problem. For as long as anyone can remember, the two altars haven been together with no discernible confusion on the part the faithful.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,043
    IMHO

    Altar of Sacrifice : redundant; Altar of Repose : non-existent.
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 94
    MJO - Sorry, I'm still new to proper liturgical syntax. (Given the P&W Masses my CM Director is trying to force my Music Director and I to do, and the state of music in SoCal, you can see I'm struggling.)

    Just to clarify: Directly asking Mary and the Saints are bad, mentioning them (in communion with..., etc.) indirectly is ok?
  • ... - redundant;... - non-existent.

    Pelucid!
    An altar is an altar.
    It is a sacred table on which sacrifices are performed and offered.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 94
    What would be the proper name for the Holy Thursday altar?
  • Kyle -

    >You have correctly understood the position which I share with many others, including bishops.
    >Others here take issue with that.

    >One should note that it isn't 'bad' directly to address the BVM and the saints.
    >We do this all the time in our daily prayer lives, and it is a good thing - a very good and comforting thing... and not just a good thing, but results in blessed relationships.
    >The communion of saints is real, of inestimable beneficence, and is pleasing to God.
    >The mass, however, is a unique sacramental and covenant event betwixt the Holy Trinity and his people, and a careful apprehension of the ritual text will reveal that direct converse with any of the saints or angels, or, for that matter, amongst ourselves, is not appropriate during mass.
    >The saints and angels who are present at every mass join their praises with ours, and we join ours with theirs, but we do not, when faithful to the ritual text and the ecclesial mind which it reflects, invoke them or tack onto the mass devotions to them.
    >We and they together are put in our proper relative perspectives as creatures joining together in worship of God, and receiving his blessings.
    >The wondrous beauty of this is that we do have direct access, through Jesus, to our loving Heavenly Father, a thing which Jesus assured us of, and which is reflected in the only example of prayer which he, God the Son, left us.
    Thanked by 2KyleM18 Liam
  • KyleM18
    Posts: 94
    When, then, does the Mass end? I've been taught it ends at the Ite Missa Est, and the recessional is optional. If this is the case, can we tack on a "Regina Caeli" or whatever the seasonal antiphon is? Or is it only appropriate as a prelude/postlude?
  • The mass ends with the blessing and dismissal.
    Following it with the seasonal Marian antiphon, or some other devotions, would be fitting.
    Thanked by 1KyleM18