Christmas and Confirmation Pre-Mass music problem solution
  • It's not the music that is the problem, but the talking in the congregation. This happens at Christmas especially at the children's/family Mass and the late Mass. But this is especially problematical at Confirmation, with so many relatives, many of whom may not be Catholic and unaware of the solemnity of the occasion and the church.

    Working for weeks to prepare music - in my case awhile back, a Brandenburg Concerto with adult and teen age string players - and find everyone talking and no one listening is disheartening to your group.

    In retrospect, we could have come out in front of altar to gain their attention, but I have a problem with that myself - preferring not to stand and block the view of the Tabernacle.

    If I were to do this again, I think I would have a person introducing each piece with just a sentence or so.
  • It is nice to make it a small sacred music concert before mass. We do a concert before Christmas Midnight Mass every year.
    Thanked by 3MarkS canadash Spriggo
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Chances are, it won't work.

    There was a kind of 'prayer service'/prelude before the installation Mass for my diocese's new bishop a couple of years ago, I was 'lucky' enough to be in attendance at that Mass.

    Everyone was talking; a half-hour before the Mass a cantor is alb gets up to the microphone and says that we should all be quiet because a service is starting. Everyone stopped talking, he said "let us all stand and sing [the hymn in your programs]", the organ started, and so did all the talking. After the hymn, the cantor lead a prayer, and the choir sang Purcell's "Rejoice in the Lord, Always", and the people continued talking -- through the anthem AND the prayer. All through this little service/prelude, there was incessant talking: you couldn't hear the prayers, and I think myself and an organist-friend sitting directly behind me were the only people in the nave singing any of the hymns; occasionally you could hear some bits of the anthems. On the whole it was pretty pathetic. And the worst thing is that this Mass was not 'open to the public': everyone there was 'invited': the KofC, the Knights of Malta, the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre, city, state and federal officials, the representatives of religious orders from inside and outside the diocese, and each parish was given only THREE tickets for three representatives from each parish -- and you would think that this kind of group would know how to behave in a church, or at least, at a solemn public function.

    It makes me glad that all of the important and solemn public occasions happened over fifty years ago -- imagine if the 'selfie generation' had been around for the Coronation of Elizabeth, II?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Signs at all doors:

    https://adeaconswife.files.wordpress.com/2010/07/holy-silence-sign.jpg

    "imagine if the 'selfie generation' had been around for the Coronation of Elizabeth, II?"

    I don't if there have been issues with recent solemn royal liturgies, but let's just say I am not awaiting the coronation of the successor with baited breath. (One major open question, assuming the service itself is not changed, would be whether the consort is or is not crowned - it's certainly been omitted in the past, so it is optional.)

  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Help or detract ...
    welcome wagon crews at the entrances?
    subdued lighting?

  • Everyone was talking; a half-hour before the Mass a cantor is alb gets up to the microphone and says that we should all be quiet because a service is starting.


    No one took control. Telling people to be quiet because a service is starting is meaningless. Explaining that this is a holy time of prayer and silent medication and if they find themselves needing to talk, please go outside the church/convention center meeting room.

    That's not enough. That person has to back away from the microphone and stays in sight, sitting where he can be seen, paying close attention to the music and then rising and going to the microphone to introduce each piece. He should read the text of each piece, especially if it is in a foreign language.

    This all has to be rehearsed in advance.

    He's telling them what they are going to hear, paying attention to the music and standing, getting and maintaining their attention each time.

    Since this was not a regular congregation, he could and should let them know the rules and invite them to leave. I'm serious.
    Thanked by 1MarkS
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    "We speak, SILENTLY, to God before the service.
    God speaks to us during the service.
    We speak to each other after the service."
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    "We speak, SILENTLY, to God before the service.
    God speaks to us during the service.
    We speak to each other after the service in the parking lot."
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Also the narthex...
    Thanked by 2Reval CHGiffen
  • If you've advertised an event as starting at N o'clock, people will expect that's when it starts. If you want the proceedings to start 1/2 an hour before Mass starts, then you need to advertise the service as starting at the 1/2 hour beforehand, and as noted above you need to be seen to be starting then.

    Expecting people who maybe don't believe even in God to have respect for the church-building just because have have respect for it is naive.

    We also have a couple of generations who have been brought up to believe that the only important ceremony is Mass. The downside of understanding Eucharist as source and summit is that to many, nothing else matters.
  • Pax,

    I was (to my shame) 10 minutes late to a meeting recently. No, it wasn't Mass or anything like that, but I was astonished to discover that, being ten minutes late, I was the first person to arrive. Sometimes an announced time isn't an announced time?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    No, it wasn't Mass or anything like that, but I was astonished to discover that, being ten minutes late, I was the first person to arrive.

    Reminds me of the difference, when I was a Gastprofessor at the University of Heidelberg many years ago, between the announced times: 1600 Uhr C.T. and 1600 Uhr S.T. Can you guess the difference?
  • Um, ten minutes???
  • MarkS
    Posts: 282
    Actually, I think it's 15 minutes!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Yes, C.T. (cum tempus) means a 15 minute delay in the actual start, while S.T. (sine tempus) means promptly at the stated time.

    Shortly after I arrived in Heidelberg, I showed up at 4pm for a lecture, and there wasn't a soul in the lecture hall or even milling around outside, until about 4:10, when I asked if the lecture was going to be held. That is when I became enlightened to the meaning of C.T. and S.T.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Hmm.
    This would never happen at Walsingham!
    Perhaps the most civil and productive thing would be to get their attention over the microphone and politely explain with as little brevity as possible that music has been prepared for their aedification as a pre-service, 'prelude', offering, and would they kindly make themselves receptive to its intended spiritual benefits.

    There are, of course, some un-civil options that might be tempting, but they likely would not be productive. (Incivility rarely is.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Jackson,

    as little brevity as possible



    Such a small quantity of brevity could scarcely endure until the end has not arrived?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Beginning this year, I'm moving my professional brass quintet from Midnight Mass to the 'family Vigil Mass for this reason. Mind you, this is in a parish that's normally very quiet before Mass. Visitors and formerly-active members are the difficulty, talking-wise.

    The only surefire way to achieve quiet before Mass when it's not spontaneous is to have someone stand at the ambo and request a time of prayer from that point until Mass starts. It's not a 'shut the heck up' message, but instead one pointing to the good, namely, the right attitude in the House of God and before the Blessed Sacrament.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I find a piece of Renaissance polyphony usually works. We have many large diocesan events relating to RCIA and whatnot during Advent and Lent when organ preludes aren't allowed (see MS) - so I usually schedule a piece of polyphony as prelude. We begin the piece barely able to hear ourselves over the sound of 1000+ people talking and generally making human noises downstairs - and then usually before singing for one minute silence has come over the place. I'm not sure how it works (is someone downstairs doing the horrible SHHing noise and I can't tell?), but it has worked every time.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    They just talk louder.
    Thanked by 2canadash Spriggo
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Upon arriving at our parish our priest had a volunteer lead the rosary prior to every Mass. It stopped the chatter almost immediately and we were not a quiet congregation.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    a volunteer lead the rosary prior to every Mass
    I hate that! It cuts right across my spiritual and physical (hearing aids, etc) preparation for Mass. Much as I dislike chatter before Mass, I find it easier to say prayers to dispose myself against a background of chatter which I can ignore. And I would expect that it will not work well in the specific circumstances the OP described, much too Catholic to be meaningful for those causing the problem.
    Thanked by 3Reval Liam PaxMelodious
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    "Much as I dislike chatter before Mass, I find it easier to say prayers to dispose myself against a background of chatter which I can ignore."

    Precisely. It's white noise.

    The worst instance I remember was the year I was doing the Sacred Heart novena, and I also went to Mass for the solemnity itself at a nearby parish I don't normally attend, to offer prayers for the devotion, only to be distracted by a very loud recitation of the Rosary for the 15 minutes before Mass began (I came earlier, but hadn't planned on that kind of disruption).

    (This was compounded by the priest coming out in green vestments and doing what would otherwise have been the ferial propers, and the lectors following suit. It was bizarre. Since my very first Mass of the novena had commenced a few months earlier at the same church (because I suddenly discovered my territorial parish was doing a funeral instead of daily Mass that day) with my slipping and falling on a sea of white ice - that I mistakenly thought was snow - in a church parking lot, I figured this was God's way of continuing a message about my participation in the devotion was going to be about perseverence than personal satisfaction.)
    Thanked by 1Reval
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I don't have the "chatter" problem before Christmas Eve mass - or at least, for the Midnight Mass and 11:30 p.m. concert. Some years ago, a 6:00 p.m. mass was added which I played for 2 or three years. The "contemporary" mass musicians - about as contemporary as 1975 - were looking for something to do associated with Christmas. I turned that mass over to them. They get all the chattering and child noises. By midnight, it's a different crowd and they are fairly quiet.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    I understand your point of view on the rosary prior to Mass. I had my doubts when we began. But the rosary has fostered a routine of quiet. Now our parish is almost always quiet before Mass, rosary or not.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    If there's public recitation of the rosary (as opposed to quiet where it's understood that people are saying the rosary together in silence), it's not quiet....
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    But it's not a loud cacophony of people greeting one another, conversations and people roaming in and out of the church either. At least it is reverent.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    It can be "louder" because it's highly patterned. The cacophony can become white noise that's (however counterintuitively) easier to pray with. That's why I would recommend that pre-Mass rosary be conducted in a low voice, as a courtesy to others who may for good reason have other devotions to pray/contemplate. If no one's ever considered that, here's the prompt for why. (PS: I normally try to pray the rosary myself before Mass, but not aloud, and I would find it distracting to have to pray it aloud because of how I contemplate/meditate while praying it.)
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    The greatest problem with chatter is before weddings and funerals, where part of the congregation is not Catholic, and have little sense of the Lord's presence.

    The problem of chatter during music, and I observe it when I play an organ prelude, is that our culture has become so used to having radio or television on all the time, that they are accustomed to talking over it. I have tried to play the organ more loudly, but you know the result: they talked more loudly.

    We sing a Mass at Christmas midnight, singing a polyphonic mass, so that it lasts until 1;15 or a little later. It is usually crowded, so people come early to get a good seat, quite a few at 11:30. So I prepared a nice program of music a half hour before Mass. Next year they came at 11:00. This puts the emphasis in the wrong place. It should be on the Mass, with the polyphonic setting enhancing the solemnity of the occasion. With a program of polyphonic music before the Mass, attention flags about 12:30; so we went to organ music with a few carols before Mass. It works well. From year to year, the conversation varies; some years, it is quite noticeable, some not at all. Go figure.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    "I have tried to play the organ more loudly, but you know the result: they talked more loudly."

    Indeed. I've wondered what instrumentalists continue to imagine that playing loudly will quiet people.

    The quickest way to get people to listen in conversation is to speak in a low voice. It's *not* fail-safe, but of the tricks it seems to work best. But it's harder to translate that to an environment like church.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    tried to play the organ more loudly

    You start loud (compared to what the piece would call for),
    and stay loud and it does not matter.
    Even if you begin playing before anyone arrives.

    That is why i asked above ...
    subdued lighting?
  • The greatest problem with chatter is before weddings and funerals, where part of the congregation is not Catholic, and have little sense of the Lord's presence.


    Apologies, Dr. Mahrt, but isn't the problem worse when the Catholic population in attendance has little sense of the Lord's presence? Protestants at a Catholic event will often observe good manners because good manners are what is expected, but Catholics at home, where Catechesis is so appallingly bad that they don't know Who's in the tabernacle or why that matters, surely behave worse and respond badly to any correction?
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • I'm surprised. In my experience the churches at which sacred silence is observed before liturgy are Catholic and Episcopal. Lutherans are apt to chatter audibly but stop when the prelude begins. Presbyterians and Methodists even moreso, and who knows about Baptists and others.

    Chris is right, though: catechesis is poor. Plus, Catholic culture and Catholic mores have suffered appallingly since the recent council. Still I've not been to a Catholic church at which there was the mumble or rumble of chatter and converse before mass. Perhaps this is regional - and, if so, one would wonder at the social and cultural dynamics from region to region that makes it so. And, it may be true that, where chatter is bad Protestant visitors, not being 'at home' may behave more reverently (or fearfully) than ill-bred Catholics who are just a little bit too much 'at home'.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    If I may, in my experience chatter has depended on the architecture of the church. In the town where I was raised (which is not well catechized in general) the churches which are built in a traditional style with high ceilings, arches, large stained glass windows, a large formal sanctuary and long aisles have minimal chatter. Many modern churches in this small city have a semi-circular architecture, little to no stained glass windows; there is no crucifix; one can't find the tabernacle; they are dark and dreary structures... I think you get the idea. These churches are noisy and full of socializing prior to Mass.

    My church began in a school gym and I think the social culture just continued when they moved into the church building. It wasn't horrible, but it wasn't great. The rosary has helped. As for the need to pray in silent space, I notice parishioners with particular devotions use our chapel regularly before Mass.


    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Hmmm... canadash has introduced an interesting factor - maybe churches that look like and feel like churches are apt not to become violated sacred space, whereas churches that look like and are arranged like theatres and arenas invite the sort of non-sacred behaviour that such buildings normally are host to. (???)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • "maybe churches that look like and feel like churches"

    And sound like churches.

    Resonant buildings are less responsive to chatter...it becomes a sort of white noise that is present but not noticeable after a bit. But in a dead building everything is heard as every sound has a definite beginning and an end.
    Thanked by 3Liam canadash CHGiffen
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    While chatter can vary enormously within any single denomination, Canadash is spot on about architecture. One of my best experiences as a sub was playing a prelude of Frescobaldi for a handful of rapt Lutherans; at the last chord the doors of the narthex were flung open and the rest of the congregation set down their coffee and lined up for the procession.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen