Organist wants all to stay for Closing Voluntary
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,466
    I can't imagine this ever being an issue in a Catholic Church!

    https://www.ppumc.org/2016/august-29-2016-end-times/
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    Most Catholic PIPs in the USA would greet such an admonition with non-cooperation, shall we say. It's a function of the governance culture of the Catholic Church: the PIPs get an overt say in very little, so when faced with a new command that is gilding the lily, they tend to exercise their power of non-cooperation. It can take a while for new pastors to learn this hard lesson, let alone lay ministers. Organ or musical solos before and after Mass survive on the sufferance of the PIPs.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • At one weekly 11:00 am Catholic Mass I know, the congregation regularly stays for all the verses of the closing hymn, which I find remarkable. Last time I checked in, the only ones who left before the hymn ended were (1) the clergy and servers, and (2) apparent visitors. The rest wait until the hymn ends, then go out during the organ postlude.

    In another custom related to me by an organist, apparently long ago at a certain Lutheran church, the congregation was escorted out every Sunday after the service by ushers, row by row, which apparently took quite some time. The organist was expected to play until the last congregants had been ushered out.
  • It's movie theater etiquette. Who stays for the whole credit reel/closing theme?

    So, the upshot is: if we hid a bonus cartoon at the end, people would start to stick around a bit longer.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    My folks stay for all verses of the closing hymn then bolt for the door. By the time I finish the usually short postlude, there are 10-15 people gathered in the front talking. All the rest are gone.

    Great piece of advice given to me by my organ professor was, hit the sforzando, put your elbows on the Great, and hold for a minute and a half, then look up. Everyone will be gone.
  • About the closing voluntary -
    I can't imagine an entire congregation staying for the voluntary, maybe, maybe , some of it, but not all of it.
    That said, it is not at all uncommon in many places (less likely to be Catholic ones) for a cadre of organ and music lovers always to stay for the voluntary, some of whom even gather 'round the organ in rapt appreciation.
    Particularly at evensongs, which are a rather special case, nearly everyone will normally stay to hear the voluntary. It is, after all, a musical offering to the Most High.

    About all stanzas of the dismissal hymn -
    There are probably relatively few Catholic churches at which the entire congregation will stay for all the stanzas. There are laudable exceptions, though. One is St Basil's Chapel, at Houston's UST. It is the teaching of the campus chaplain that this hymn is part and parcel of the worship. The people stay and enthusiastically sing - even if it's all seven or so stanzas of Crucifer.
    Too, of course, it would be unheard of and unthinkable for anyone to leave at Walsingham before all stanzas have been sung. I would expect that this would be true of all Ordinariate parishes - it's our tradition.

    Biting my tongue, lest I say something awfully negative, let me say that a mountain of catechesis is desperately needed with regard to Catholics and their participation at mass, this and their depth of comprehension of the mass as a continuum of prayer, adoration, and praise - rather than a series of 'now we do this, and now we do that'. There is little understanding of the entire mass as an unfolding unity. The worst enemies of this, aside from pitifully poor catechesis, are announcers, cantors who call attention to themselves, clergy who insert their far from priceless comments, announcements, and so forth: distracting things that mercilessly interrupt the sacred action and frustrate spiritual flow and immersion in it.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • If the priest would stay around for most or all of the verses of the closing hymn (and perhaps even open the hymnal on the altar and sing!) ....we could sing all the verses. I sub in at several parishes...where the priest does this...the congregation stays and sings....where he does not....the congregation leaves and if the choir/cantor/organist continued to sing....there'd be but a few in the congregation left to sing along....at one parish the great "compromise" was to sing all the verses of the opening hymn but to shorten the closing hymn based on when the presider exits (so you also learn the presider's favored hymns where he hangs around and sings...or if he has brunch plans/dislikes the tune and makes a quick exit).
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Music Organist wants all to stay for Closing Voluntary


    Blogger wants people to Send Him Money for No Reason


  • Also, it depends on what it is -

    A coterie of some size and enthusiasmos may be expected for 'the' Widor toccata.

    Less, if any, size, and noticeably less enthusiasmos, for most anything by Bach - unless it is the great D-minor toccata, in which case the enthusiasmos may rival or surpass that for the Widor.

    Less yet if its a de Grigny plein jeu

    Even less (and definitely no enthusiasmos at all) if it's a Frescobaldi canzona.

    Froberger? Well, this will be an offering strictly to God, who alone will even notice.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    People may linger for a Daquin Noël.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    It's worth noting that the Mass is really over with the dismissal, and although it is respectful to wait until the procession has reached the back, nobody should be expected to remain for something that's not technically part of the Mass. Tired of fighting it, I eliminate the dismissal hymn entirely, and play the postlude immediately after the dismissal. Better to sing a hymn of praise after communion, when they don't have the option of leaving!
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood Viola CCooze
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    In an idealized notion Charles Tournemire thought that everyone should stay after Mass to hear the piece terminale, which was a resume of the day's thoughts musically. Those pieces contain not only some of the chants of the Mass, but also bits from the offices also. Like I said, an idealized notion......
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I find it interesting that congregations leave during the recessional hymns. My people love singing them and don't leave. I select the best of traditional hymns that they know and like to sing.

    People may linger for a Daquin Noël.


    I have noticed that, too.
  • I rather like Tournemire's attitude as offered by kevinf to the not-so-nice one held by some, namely the 'the mass is over so it really doesn't matter' syndrome. I find this latter an unfortunate and somewhat cynical stance unworthy of any whose vocation is that of church musician. Any and everything within, before, and after, and in any way associated with the mass is excruciatingly important as gorgeous creative raiment to the most sublime, potent, and splendid of human-divine actions. It matters! Tournemire said it just right. Thanks, kevinf.
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    Better to sing a hymn of praise after communion, when they don't have the option of leaving!

    Yeah - - the people who wanted to leave, never returned to the pew after communion. : )
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    I am less annoyed by the people who leave and more annoyed by the people who stand in the center aisle and TALK VERY LOUDLY.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    I play a postlude at (almost) all Masses. At weekday Masses (which are in the pm) we close with the seasonal Marian antiphon, and Sunday Masses close with the "Parish Antiphon" to Our Lady of Czestochowa; a postlude follows. People stay, people leave, whatever, doesn't bother me. The only thing that bothers me is when people get very loud in their talking after Mass. I have been known to stop a postlude, turn around, and shout from the loft: "You are still in church, and the Blessed Sacrament is present in the tabernacle. Please be quiet in church and go into the vestibule or outside to talk, thank you," and then begin the postlude again from bar 1 - even if I'm 3 bars from the end.
    Thanked by 2eft94530 Antonio
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have one diva soprano who has been heard yelling over the organ for the last 10 years. I know she has nothing so important to say it has to be said at that moment. I just play louder.
  • JesJes
    Posts: 574
    I know a priest who wanted all to stay til end of the postlude so he could ask the congregation for money for a fundraiser... His method: Lock the doors. Have guards to forbid them from leaving.
    I don't reccommend but it does achieve people staying.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    That would be illegal in the USA - a violation of local fire codes: the First Amendment is no defense to that. A pastor who did that should be corrected by his bishop (and insurer) - quickly.

    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Why stop at locked doors and guards? What about armed guards? Attack dogs? Mine field with map in the bulletin?

    ALL ARE WELCOME... to stay for the postlude or else.
  • A priest that I know yelled at the congregation for not remaining until the last verse of the closing hymn. Another priest made a more civilized speech, and at the end of that mass, one woman who was very obvious walked out right after communion, and heads were turned in that direction for the rest of the mass.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    For people who might need a history lesson in the future, a lot of people died to teach it:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocoanut_Grove_fire

    I can recall a former pastor of mine who, as the son of a fireman, would probably have bullwhipped any priest who ordered the locking of exits while people were still in a building. As it is, far too many churches thumb their noses at their fire codes and insurance policies by only having half of a double-doored exit unlocked, and that is wrong (nay, sinful, at least in objective Catholic moral theology).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    "The doors! The doors!"
    Thanked by 3JL CharlesW CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    Catholic tradition places under the 4th (Catholic enumeration) commandment obedience to lawful civil authority. Porters can guard the doors, but not lock them unless they have an override feature.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    thumb their noses at their fire codes and insurance policies

    and safety and decency

    If you only follow fire codes out of respect for civil authority, or fear of civil punishment, you're an [insert anatomically-based vulgarity here] and are unfit to be in a pastoral role of any kind.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I find it interesting that congregations leave during the recessional hymns. My people love singing them and don't leave. I select the best of traditional hymns that they know and like to sing.


    There is something to be said for playing the entire hymn. When I started here, the PIP's had a custom of leaving as soon as the clergy passed by their seats, so I'd just cut the hymn short (thinking, "Eh, what's the point?").

    After a few months I began to play every verse, whether it be 2 or 6, of the recessional hymn. It's taken awhile, but now if I look down from the loft after the postlude, I see 2/3 of the congregation still in the pews.

    Make it seem like it matters, and the people (not all, but some) will start to behave like it matters.
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    Make it seem like it matters, and the people (not all, but some) will start to behave like it matters.


    Does it matter? Isn't this part of the big debate "Are hymns an important part of Mass or do they mainly accompany a liturgical action"?
  • or do they mainly accompany a liturgical action"?


    Presumably the procession shouldn't stop at the west end, but continue until the altar party returns to the sacristy and receive the blessing from the celebrant.

    On the same hand, couldn't one reasonably argue that the singing of an actual hymn assists in our awareness of the "being sent-ness" of the Church following the "Ite missa est"?

    Of course, we should sing -- following my logic -- something like Deus tuorum militum at the end of every Mass.




  • Recently we had some words from the pulpit about making a proper thanksgiving after Mass, and I think people don't dash out much any more.

    Widor Toccata? I myself would get out as quickly as I could :-)
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Widor Toccata? Love it, but have had so few occasions to even bother with it, it isn't consequential. As I have mentioned before, the congregation is gone after the first twelve measures of any postlude.
  • On the other hand, Charles, are you making an offering to God, to your pastor (who isn't God) or to the self-appointed committee of malcontents who lurk in many parishes?
  • (post deleted)
  • Chonak? Could you reduce the over-posts, please?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The malcontents are like the poor, ever with us. The pastor is outside glad-handing, so he doesn't hear it anyway. I hope God likes it, but he has been strangely silent on that. LOL.
  • Mr. A____ always stays for the entire postlude at the 9AM Mass, the W____ family always stays for the entire postlude at the 10:45AM Mass, and the F____ family always stays for the entire postlude at the 12:30PM Mass. If any of them leave before the postlude is finished, I know that it was way too long.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,159
    Chonak? Could you reduce the over-posts, please?

    Sure. Fly me over for a house call, and we'll go buy you a new keyboard.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    Maybe the congregation can make a deal with him: shave that silly chin hair off and we'll behave during the closing.
  • Recently we had some words from the pulpit about making a proper thanksgiving after Mass, and I think people don't dash out much any more.


    If the priest insists on solemnity, you will have silence for your postlude. Thanks, mmeladirectress

    Seeing a priest return from the sacristy and kneel to pray after Mass himself is much more effective than any number of hands shaken at the back door on the spiritual life of a parish.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    I've read somewhere, not entirely sure where, that the recessional is to be sung 'while the people leave the sanctuary.' In other words, they aren't supposed to stay for all the music. The music is, basically, to cover the noise of their leaving.
  • (Tongue in cheek - )

    Well, Mr Cordova, that just goes to show you that everything you see in print isn't true, doesn't it?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    It is a recessional, after all... =)

    I'd rather people leave during the recessional hymn, than stay and talk loudly.
    Thanked by 2Viola PaxMelodious
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152

    M. Jackson Osborn September 27 Thanks
    Posts: 3,963
    (Tongue in cheek - )

    Well, Mr Cordova, that just goes to show you that everything you see in print isn't true, doesn't it?


    Yep. That's why I take everything I read here with a grain of salt! ;)
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • I'd rather..... than stay....

    I'd rather have them stay and sing loudly.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Well, Liam - I rather like the singing... but... um... something about the text!
    Maybe, to exercise charity, the captionist has a hearing (or discerning) problem???
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    That was a piece of satire that went viral (especially among choral singers) nearly a decade ago, earlyish in the YouTube era... the sacred music version of Misheard Song Lyrics....


    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Next Sunday, in a chapel where I direct the schola cantorum and play the organ, we plan to finish the schola/organ program with the simple form of Salve Regina intoned by the celebrant and chanted by everyone (priest, acolytes, schola and assistance), followed by Piroye (attributed to) 'La Royal' while to procession goes out in sacristy, in musical allusion to the last mystery of the Rosary, for an External Solemnity of the correspondent feast. In ordinary Sundays, part of assistance usually leaves the chapel after the procession goes through the sacristy door and after a brief and personal thanksgiving; others stay until the celebrant leaves the sacristy for the second time, after going back for some personal kneeling and praying himself. I usually do a brief postlude, avoiding the organ or a chanted hymn to be sounding too much long after the final procession, not to bore too much those thanksgiving actions. But in the case of festive Masses (patron of the chapel feasts, first class Masses, solemn or pontifical celebrations, first local Mass of visiting newly ordained priests etc), we use to lift organ/chant limitations and put them to sound as long as the announced program at the board fixed Chapel entrance. I have never metered, nor asked someone to do so, how many and how fast people leave the chapel while those programs are performed, but after postludes of 6+ minutes, only a few stay inside. I live with this phenomenon without problems. First of all, those postludes are not part of the Mass itself in strict sense. Also, in a relatively new traditionalist community, many people are not enough musically educated yet to appreciate those music nor to take their suggested mood for praying and meditation, and so making them to stay for additional 5 to 12 minutes. And above all, the program is offered to God, in humble expectation that, pleasing to Him, graces would be given to all the assistance, had they listened to all the program or not.