Turning Towards the Lord--and Against Clericalism
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    (cross-posted at the Cafe)

    One of the hidden benefits to a common orientation of priests and people towards the Lord in liturgy is that the priest is free to pray. Instead of having to compose his face for public viewing, he can be himself before His God. He can return to honesty and simplicity. He has a unique role, surely, but it is a humble role. He is not the central focus of the action, like an actor, but its true servant.

    Similarly, the people of God can pray to God without meeting the eyes of the priest. They can be honestly praying the prayers to God, instead of composing themselves to be seen as respectable before the priest. The Mass is a time for honesty and clear intentions, not for show. "Your life is hidden with Christ in God."

    The priest is indeed an intermediary in the Mass, but it is "no longer I, but Christ in me."

    Although we are together, let us take our eyes off of one anothers' eyes, and let each other pray.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn hilluminar CHGiffen eft94530
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I can't imagine what it must be like to say Mass versus populum... I mean... I understand that many (most?) priests have never experienced anything else.. but I know when I'm presenting a lecture or speaking to a classroom, no matter how much I try to focus on delivering my material to the majority of people who are listening and not on what people are doing - I can't help but notice the one person who is yawning or texting. Even if a priest is trying to be 100% focused on what he's doing - if someone in the front row of the church is drinking from a thermos, it's going to be hard to miss that.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Fortunately, priests turned to the Lord in both postures. And each posture has its own vulnerabilities for clericalism, which is much more a matter of character/temperament than posture.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    As an easterner, priests and people turn toward the Lord, and the east from which He will return. It's that simple. Clericalism has been with us from the beginning and I suspect will never go away as long as pride and ego exist. The emperor Justinian was battling the creeping clericalism of the silent canon in his day and the battle against clericalism continues to this day. Priests like to be special and perpetrate the mystique of their office in all religions, not just ours. Prestige is a seductress with a lengthy record of success.
    Thanked by 2hilluminar Elmar
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Whenever I walk past a jogger who is coming in the other direction, I have to stop thinking about what I'm thinking about long enough to be sociable, if required. I can't imagine facing a thousand joggers and praying my best.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    It's a matter of perspective (recursive humor alert): for a contemplative person, the "distractions" are not necessarily distracting at all, but actually where one finds God.

    The only reason I note this is that, I am an introvert but also a synaesthete: so incoming sensory "data" is multi-layered, and can be overwhelming. During my years of spiritual direction, I essentially confessed my difficulty in maintaining focus when confronted with so much sensory incoming (think M*A*S*H), as it were, and that my prayer suffered for it, et cet. I was gobsmacked to be told I was actually very contemplative - my attempts to remain focus were a form of resistance to contemplation, rather than attempts to be contemplative. I should clarify that with my sensory incoming I get a fair bit of spiritual info.

    In all these things, it really depends. There are priests and congregants for whom ad orientem is more contemplative than the other way around, but it should not be elided that it's also true vice versa. And, very often, there are conflicting temperaments in that regard.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Liam,

    If I take your point, one must draw a distinction between that which is subjectively more helpful to an individual soul and that which is objectively good. If we are faced with the personality of the priest, we are not drawn to contemplate Christ, but whether Father X is having a good day, a focused Mass, or whether he will be sufficiently dramatic in his presentation of the Mass to us; when Father X faces the Crucifix, the Tabernacle and the east, objective good is in play, not subjective good.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Chris

    I am not persuaded by that one.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Liam,

    I think a distinction should be made between sensory input and eye contact. To me they are two different things. I find, for example, that when singing the Gloria, Sanctus, or Credo, or hearing a motet, I sometimes experience "input" on all the levels you mentioned. And I also wish the priest were facing the other way so that I could experience these things without anyone potentially seeing directly how I was reacting.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,951
    Pray Tell's response

    Padraig McCarthy’s response is navelgazing at its finest and a perfect example of what Benedict talked about with the self–referential, enclosed circle at Mass. A liturgy which is entirely ad orientem is still open, at least until the Credo, is still open to that person who wants to run towards Christ but has not yet entered his church, which makes Mass facing the people inappropriate since McCarthy can only be describing the baptized. OK, so Cardinal Sarah is speaking in the context of the OF, but he thinks the Gloria, Credo, and orations can all be done facing east, per his comments last year.

    Also, the rest of the thread: gosh, it makes me upset.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Well, Matthew, you prompted me to click on the link, read the post, and a few responses. Ruined the evening for me. When we meet, you owe me a beer.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,951
    Good timing. I turn 21 in two and a half weeks.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Youngster! My eldest son turns 20 in September.
    [Now I'll duck and cover as those old enough to be my father chime in.]
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Heh. My youngest (surviving) child is 23.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 425
    So we do not experience Christ in the others with whom we pray? We do not acknowledge that the person sitting beside us might see our response?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Pax ...

    Is this a serious question?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Pax,

    I don't usually see the faces of people sitting next to me at Mass. I could turn and see them but I think that is unusual behavior.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz CCooze
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Yes, I normally sit on the tabernacle side (because it's not in the center, but it is in the sanctuary, on a side altar), and look towards it or the crucifix right behind the altar (actually, it's on the original high altar that was never removed from the church). The only time I ever look at anyone else in the pews around me is during the sign of peace, and it normally consists only of my wife, who sits right next to me, and perhaps the people immediately in front of me.
  • LenaH
    Posts: 34
    I see the heads of parishioners (which includes all the balding ones) from way up the choir loft. However, the focus is on the altar.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    So do I, and all those balding ones are not males.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz LenaH
Add a Comment