Beauty v. Ugly and Liturgical Music
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    This is quite an essay! http://uk.paix-liturgique.org/aff_lettre.asp?LET_N_ID=2470

    A couple of thought-provoking excerpts:

    (In reference to "museum-izing" Chant and polyphony)

    Art is not effective when we control it, but when it controls us. We must abandon ourselves to art in its natural environment, and in our case this environment is the liturgy. If we “museumize” these repertoires, even within the liturgy, rendering them sterile, we only betray their essence, their fecund capacity which has given life through all ages to great music (and to great art in general).


    Immediately following that is this:

    The philosopher Marcello Veneziani says it very well: “The trouble is that beauty just is, while ugliness advances, moves, speaks, acts. Beauty is inert, passive, defenseless, while ugliness advances, infiltrates, agitates. Beauty is a legacy, a lineage, sometimes a ruin, in any case declined toward the past or lost in antiquity; while ugliness is a language, a mode of doing, of understanding and of willing, between the technique and the administration. This is our economical and metaphysical, aesthetic and social, urbanistic and literary tragedy. The beautiful attains the sphere of being, but not that of the eternal and immutable. The ugly, on the other hand, attains the sphere of doing and of becoming, and is viral, expansive, progressive”


    So how does all that relate to "tradition"?

    ...This idea of tradition is tied to the idea of past. Tradition is the past. I think this idea is completely erroneous. Tradition is the future: tradition is possibility of new life that springs from a river which runs from time immemorial: “Nostalgia for the future. Perfect expression because it indicates the circularity of time, the necessity of marrying the memory of the past to the expectation of the future and to restore to continuity among generations the most vivid sense of tradition which comes from afar and pitches forward into the future. Just has the history of the twentieth century has demonstrated, the future without tradition loses itself in the night of the present: every attempt to live the future, erasing the origin, has dragged even the future into the death of history. He who kills his own father is destined to suppress his own children, or makes himself to be killed by them, by a perverse tradition. The future is tradition in its coming version, it is its tomorrow. Every new beginning is a return to the origin.


    Not enough? Then how about a little Scroton!!

    Scruton tells us in How to be a Conservative (2014) that tradition is not an instinct of accumulation, but rather resources of meaning for the future. He explains that the most relevant social traditions are not mere arbitrary usages, survived in the modern world: they are, rather, forms of knowledge, they contain what remains of so many trial and error attempts, which came about because people sought to adequate their behavior to the behavior of others.


    That should start a good discussion, no?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Wow. The explanation of beauty vs. ugliness is very powerful. If I've tried to teach my children anything it is that they must always seek for the good, the true and the beautiful in all things and avoid at all costs anything that is evil, false and ugly, and that goes for every branch of human endeavor, but esp. the fine arts: art, music, movies, literature--- because you very quickly become what you read, watch and admire.

    However, it is the influence of tradition, education and civilization that cultivates in people the ability to recognize and appreciate the good, the true and beautiful.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Even more is there if we understand "the true" to ALSO be "the beautiful," which is the case in classical philosophy. Then recall that Christ Self-identified as "Truth." The implications are wonderful!
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Saint Thomas Aquinas talks about potency and act.
    Evil is a lack of good.

    Ugliness is a lack of beauty.
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,076
    whatsoever is true, whatsoever is good, whatsoever is beautiful... is of God.
    their opposites... are not.

  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    And by the way... Beauty is NOT in the eye of the Beholder... it is in the eye of God.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Not according to Aquinas... It is that which is pleasing to the senses; this is one reason a professor I had at FUS claims it is not a transcendental. God would have all beauty insofar as he has all perfections, but saying beauty is like God being good or true is more difficult.
  • With Francis I do concur in this matter of where lies beauty. It certainly is not 'in the eye of the beholder' - unless he is eying the objectively beautiful.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    MatthewRoth:

    Can you give us the references to your statement if you would take the trouble to find them? It would be interesting to discuss.

    My reference to the 'eye of God' is that I firmly believe that the measure of beauty is not subjective, but absolute. In a few words, I don't believe man is the measure of beauty, but God is. He has placed in us the ability to know it (him), and the reflections of him that pass through our senses. The beauty that we create are of course dim reflections, and some are purer than others. The most beautiful of these musings will deliver us to God, either closer or farther away, depending upon their measure. This is my own take, however, and I would like to see the Aquinas argument.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Summa Theologiae I–II, q. 27, a. 1. It doesn’t mean beauty is entirely subjective, but saying it is objective in relation to God is tricky.
    Thanked by 2francis eft94530
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Dad (or anyone else for that matter), what would you say to Eric Gill's assertion that "Beauty Looks After Herself"? Would you say this is conditional on the Good and True being taken care of in the first place, or does she stand apart?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Once we have our first, verifiable CLOSE ENCOUNTER of the THIRD KIND, all this conjecture about beauty goes down the sinkhole. We, being the terracentric, or terraist sort of creature.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    First off, a clarification. I did a mashup of Aristotle and JC; Ari claimed that 'goodness, truth, and beauty' were (effectively) a unity and JC self-identified as "Way, Truth, Life."

    If Ari is right, then "truth" is the commonality--ergo, Way, Truth, Life, Beauty, Goodness are a unity (given that only God is the perfection of all the above).

    (Then you have "created beauty"--what God made which is beautiful--and "sub-created beauty"--what man made which is beautiful. It's a useful distinction.)

    Anyhoo--taking your shortening of Gill at face value, then I would argue that Gill is saying that beauty 'looks after itself' in the same way that truth and goodness do--that is, they are independent of our judgment.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Way, Truth, Life ...

        The Call

    Come, my Way, my Truth, my Life:
    Such a Way, as gives us breath:
    Such a Truth, as ends all strife:
    Such a Life, as killeth death.

    Come, my Light, my Feast, my Strength:
    Such a Light, as shows a feast:
    Such a Feast, as mends in length:
    Such a Strength, as makes his guest.

    Come, my Joy, my Love, my Heart:
    Such a Joy, as none can move:
    Such a Love, as none can part:
    Such a Heart, as joys in love.

    George Herbert

    A comment (which should be in the worst hymn tunes/harmonizations thread): As a hymn with the saccharine arrangement of the Vaughan Williams tune (basically the first verse setting of RVW, three times without variation), this is insipid and lacks inspiration ... quite unlike the setting for soloist in RVW's "Five Mystical Songs".
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    For me, anything where "life" is rhymed with "strife" is right out.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Ted
    Posts: 202
    There is an informative talk (with downloadable pdf) by Dr Travis Cooper on Beauty as a transcendental in Aquinas, which discusses related issues, at the Thomas Aquinas College site:
    https://thomasaquinas.edu/about/beauty-distinct-transcendental-according-st-thomas-aquinas
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    For me, anything where "life" is rhymed with "strife" is right out.


    Add in "knife" and you have every poem written by a seventh grade emo kid.

    Beauty looks after herself


    I have not read the relevant book, so forgive the uninformed interjection, but: If "beauty" is part of the unity that is God (truth, beauty, way, life, etc.), could this not mean that beauty is self-subsistent? Or, to put it in more contemporary terms, that beauty is an observer-independent reality?
  • ...an observer-independent reality?

    I like this.
    Beauty is.
    To some it is self-evident.
    To others it is non-apparent.
    It is what it is regardless of its being
    beheld in awe or indifference by a given 'beholder'.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood francis
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Naturally, this flies in the face of the age-old cliche, as well as contemporary relativism. But, when considering the "highest" (for lack of a better description) definition of beauty, and not just "attractiveness," I think it might be true.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    For me, anything where "life" is rhymed with "strife" is right out.

    Add in "knife" and you have every poem written by a seventh grade emo kid.


    FWIWl, George Herbert (1593-1633) wasn't exactly a seventh grade emo kid. An Anglican priest, he is associated with the writings of the metaphysical poets, and he is recognized as "a pivotal figure: enormously popular, deeply and broadly influential, and arguably the most skilful and important British devotional lyricist."

    Go ahead and provide a better rhyme:

    Come, my Way, my Truth, my Life:
    Such a Way, as gives us breath:
    Such a Truth, __________________

    strife, knife, fife ... pretty slim pickings, methinks.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Rhymes that may seem overused
    Once were new in 1610
    Let them hence not be refused
    When you read the song again.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Speaking of ugly...Does anyone know the secret location of the cave where Jackson will be hiding until the NPM convention leaves town?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Fwiw, I like "come my way...", and RVW's tune for it in the 1982. Though I do think it is usually played too slowly.
  • ...location of the cave...


    Ha! Actually, I'll be presenting one section of an NPM organ crawl for our youth. This will be at 9.00am (arrggghhhh: 9.00AM!) Monday morning at St Basil's Chapel, UST. About 25 or so young persons will be treated to four pieces from an all chant recital that I gave on Low Sunday last. The pieces they will hear are 1) Gerre Hancock's Fantasy on Divinum mysterium, 2) de Grigny's Ave maris stella, 3) Ahrens' Puer natus est, and 4) Langlais' Te Deum. The youth will sing all the chants that go with these pieces. The second half of their visit will allow them to explore the organ themselves. Actually, I'm really looking forward to this - it is a great and rare opportunity!

    Then they are off to the glorious Pasi at the co-cathedral and I know not where else - maybe Christ Church Cathedral where there's the best of Houston's three Skinners, the Letourneau at St John the Divine, etc.

    The remainder of the week will find me nowhere near the NPM goings on. There are going to be a couple of token chant introits and communions at one or two of the masses. I do not do tokens.

    Walsingham's choirmaster is on holiday in Maine for two weeks. I will be busy subbing for him. I wonder if any of the conventioneers will have any interest in the ordinariate at worship.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    The RVW "tune" in the 1982 is of course by RVW ... but the setting is not. Here's the way it was meant to be sung (not as a hymn). Note the different accompaniment for verses 1 & 2 and then the elaboration of the tune in verse 3 ... THIS is Vaughan Williams as it was meant to be sung.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SI9-cmecB2o
  • Adam has called forth attention to a very important factor in singing, and in music in general. That of 'faster' vs 'slower'. Faster is perceived frequently as an antidote to sluggishness, lack of spirit, and, in general, plain old not-getting-off-the-groundness. This is unfortunate. Tempo, whether more 'spirited' or not, should never be perceived as a cure all for what is basically a lack of musicianship, diction and intonation, a failure to breathe, support tone, and give birth to a performance that has momentum and spirit - regardless of its tempo. If a piece is not coming together as it should, singing it faster is not going to cure what is, fundamentally, poor musical instinct. Having said all that, please do not pounce in defence of the importance of tempo, and the right one (in a given room and with given performers), as one of multiple factors that make a piece come to life. There is no question about that. The point is that fasterness is not, ever, the corrective for sloppy tone production and amateurish method.

    I suspect that Adam's too slow performances were actually just bad renditions delivered with inadequate attention to musicality. The piece in question is, I think, quite versatile as regards tempo. Sung by someone who 'knows what he is doing' this piece could be effective at a variety of tempos, the correct one at a given performance being the one that sounds best in the room and with the given voice. But, there is no 'right tempo' for this piece, nor few others, in all circumstances.

    In short, Adam's dismay should be directed at the singer, not the tempo.
    Thanked by 2chonak CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Organist. But yes.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    I assumed Adam to be talking about congregational singing in which "lack of musicianship, diction and intonation, sloppy tone production and amateurish method" are to a certain extent taken for granted, along with a non-collective responsibility for articulation and, yes, tempo.
  • With all due respect, I assure you, Richard -
    My remarks were not predicated on that assumption. But, since you mention it, I have heard certain congregations sing with better musicianship than many choirs I've heard, choirs that weren't necessarily those of poor or remote churches. Since you mention it, it is my experience that congregations can sing as well as their choirmasters and organists can patiently and systematically train them to sing. I have had congregations of seven hundred souls who could sing 'Ah, Holy Jesus' on Good Friday as well as any choir you ever heard, accompanied by no more than a single 8' lieblich gedeckt. I will never tire of insisting that congregations have capabilities that would amaze most Catholic priests and musicians, who never tire of telling one another and their people that 'our people can't do' such and such. This is sick. Absolutely sick. And it begets more sickness. The problem is not the people. It is their leadership. What is essential is that one 1) knows what can be accomplished, 2) has the personal capacity and vision to infect his people with it, 3) has the trust and love of his people and superiors, 4) is himself an artist, 5) whose very presence instills confidence, all this and more, but this will do for now.

    When I play people sing. They sing whether I play slowly or fastly (it's not the tempo, but the sense of movement and momentum that one conveys with the organ). They sing all the better when I'm playing more than what is written on the page. They are overjoyed to be a part of the worshipful music making.

    Most Catholics, priests, bishops, musicians, and people, just don't 'get it'. Instead of the old saw about 'our people can't' they should just admit that they themselves are not up to it. (And, of course, having fine organs and fewer (as in none) grand pianos and microphonists would help immensely.)
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    MJO

    Yes Yes and yes.

    Good musicianship is sorely lacking and good leadership on all fronts. Without excellence beauty there will be not.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Back a hundred years or so, Sr. Theophane advised me to keep hymns SLIGHTLY up-tempo to counteract the normal 'drag' of the congregational singing.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Adam Wood
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have to keep the hymns up-tempo to counteract the normal drag of the aging soprano.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    But, there is no 'right tempo' for this piece, nor few others, in all circumstances.


    There are an awful lot of wrong ones, though.

    In respect to "Come My Way," I would say that if an average singer can't make it through the melisma in the last line, it is too slow.
    (Also, the unfortunate habit of slowing down as one approaches the end of each stanza makes any tempo feel "too slow.")

    re: my post in that other thread about boring music...
    There are a lot of church musicians who seem to equate "slow" with "solemn" and "dignified."

    Yes, of course, this manifests in a lot of other musical boredom as well, as you mentioned. But tempo being one poor choice among many doesn't make it any less a bad choice. Too, musicians should know what they are good at and bad at, and compensate as needed. Someone who is only adequate, and cannot keep the forward line moving at a slower tempo, should have the wherewithal to realize that and do the one thing that would immediately help the congregation sing, which is frequently simply to play the dang song a little faster.

    re: my original point, anyway

    I have heard the tune slow and bad, as well as slow and good. I simply prefer the tune better at a somewhat more sprightly tempo than I have ever heard any organist anywhere play it.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Good points, all, Adam.
    I think that you have underlined that any tempo problems in a piece are actually (at least most of the time) performer problems. Yes, it is wise to take a piece at a tempo at which the performer(s) can perform it well. Too, there are some musics which some performers cannot perform convincingly at any tempo. It is misery to the hearers and disrespectful of the music when they don't know this (and the sin is compounded when they do know this), inflict their shortcomings on worshippers, and give the music bad repute

    Too, you are spot on about the tastelessness of putting a ritard at the ends of stanzas, or the last stanza. This is exceedingly amateurish and should never be done.

    And, about your boring music. I would suggest, again, blaming the performer, not the music - unless the music is inherently bad (in which case one should not be performing it). Some singers and choirs could make anyone hate Palestrina, thinking that the problem was Palestrina, not the singers.

    (By the way - speaking of performer shortcomings - there is a film about Florence Foster Jenkins to be released sometime this autumn. Helen Mirren will be playing FFJ. I can't wait to hear her do the Queen of the Night!)
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood WGS
  • An addendum about 'bad' performers. I happened on a youtube visit to the Trappist's Genesee monastery just several days ago. There was a segment showing the monks singing someone's Renaissance O sacrum convivium. Oh! One never heard such out of tuneness, horrid diction, awful and utterly untutored tonal production. It was terrible! But! In this context it was beautiful. Very beautiful. It was them being themselves and being aedified by offering to the All Holy the best they could do with some very finely crafted music. I'm quite sure that these monks knew that they were not Chanticleer, nor would they have thought of singing their music at some parish or at an outside place. But, their horrible singing was exquisite, I have no doubt, in the ears of God. It certainly was in mine!

    (I spent a month's retreat at New Mellary back in the nineties. It wasn't Benedictine! I was told by Father Samuel that 'we are the Puritans of the Catholic Church'. He was right! They had an fifteen or so rank tracker that I enjoyed playing. While they did no junky music and nicely chanted everything, their liturgy was, as I said above, um, not Benedictine.)