Question for Acousticians
  • kpoterack
    Posts: 27
    I understand that Gypsum Wall Board in a church is bad for acoustics, especially for low frequency sounds. Aside from not using it at all, what could one do to it to improve the sound? Or what could one use instead? What are the relative costs?

    Thanks in advance!
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Tin? Enamel paint?
  • Marble or granite.
    Too expensive?
    Try hard wood or greystone.
    Don't like those?
    There is ceramic tile or glass.
    And, there is nothing wrong with brick.
    Just about anything that reflects sound waves instead of absorbing them.

    If you have already undesirable walls (or ceilings), there are certain kinds of paint that can improve matters significantly.

    (About those acousticians! Do not ask the advice of one! It's amazing how so many of them hate acoustics and do all they can to eliminate them - so that their colleagues can sell you a hundred thousand dollars worth of otherwise unnecessary PA system.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • kpoterack
    Posts: 27
    Thanks Jackson. There are some good acousticians out there, like Scott Riedel. These are the ones whose advice I am seeking. But I know what you mean . . .
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • JesJes
    Posts: 574
    You don't want to talk to acousticians. Talk to organ builders!
    Best advice we got in my local was "remove the carpet." We did and now we have 3 second decay.

    If however you are going to talk to a knowledgable acoustician have an acoustic in mind. (Namely a nearby cathedral or something that you can take them to and show them the "ultimate aim" for.)

    As weird as this may sound you might find that dense cladding on particular walls will help reflect a little bit of what you want. It's cheap and fairly easy to do, look into relocating a few musical things and if at a complete loss go for microphones and get a sound engineer to construct false reverb. My friend did that in an acoustically poor room at uni and it paid off, the sound engineer used a reverb setting called "cathedral" haha.

    Also I dunno if american's use these but orchestra sound barriers are great, we don't have them in Aus but NZ use them. You can strategically place these around the place but they hardly look inconspicuous, talk to French horn players. They'll know what I'm on about.
    Thanked by 2chonak CHGiffen
  • I liked what I was reading just above until I got to 'microphones' and 'false reverb'... and so forth. In other words, an acoustical simulacrum.

    Thanks. I'll settle for real acoustics, even if they aren't those that I would wish for. Lies are detestable things. Those which relate to music, highest of all the arts, are particularly pernicious and impious.

    As for avoiding acousticians other than those that may be referenced by organ builders, that is sterling advice. But you know that already.
    Thanked by 3Jes advocatus CHGiffen
  • JesJes
    Posts: 574
    Yes false microphones and reverb are for only the most desperate of situations. With the Hungarian's work on virtual organs of late I'm seeing this technology change, it's become worthwhile checking out for some more modern situations.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I think it unwise to throw all acousticians into one group.

    The chapel at Kenrick-Glennon Seminary in St. Louis was recently renovated. The room was terribly dead before on account of Gustavino tile AND unsealed stone. It is much better now. They DID engage an acoustician. Just depends on who you talk to.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    It is not simply the use of dry-wall in the church building, it is the grade of it. Residential dry-wall is typically only 5/8" thick. Even fastened to studs on 16" centers, it will need a lot of horizontal pieces, AND the dry-wall attached to all of the under-structure with some sort of glue, not just mechanical fasteners. The better option is commercial dry-wall that is 5/4" think ( 1 1/4"). Jackson can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe OLW originally had only the residential installed, and the organ builder, Roy Redman, had then glue on a second layer to make it commercial.

    IMO Fr. Phillips had it right at Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio - using "tilt wall" construction throughout everything. You have to hang an awful lot of stuff on a solid concrete wall to mess up the great acoustics!
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    Getting the right acoustician is key: someone who understands the nature and requirements of Catholic liturgy, and traditional, acoustic music-making; someone who is hired by and can advocate for the client and not simply subcontracted by the architect for advice. The acoustician must be a central player on the design team.

    If dry-wall is used, studs should be closer together than usual, and multiple layers should be screwed together to achieve maximum density and solidity. But these sorts of specifications should be determined within the the design process (rather than kibbutzing from the outside) with the active engagement of the acoustician.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Use stainless steel, and make sure there are lots of right angles.
  • Actually, just make the entire church carpet, the walls, the console, the pews, you name it. Best Cathedral sound ever.
  • kpoterack
    Posts: 27
    Steve,

    Everywhere I look online, commercial drywall is referred to as 5/8 inch and residential is 1/2 inch. I can't find any commercial drywall that is 1 1/4" unless you mean stacking it in several layers?
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    CK

    You want a side order of 5000K LED lamps to go with the polished steel?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Of course, Liam. How else will the PIPs be able to read from their Missallettes?
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Liam
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    BruceL

    Regarding the St Joseph Chapel at the St Louis Seminary - were the Guastavino tiles of the pre-Akoustolith (1916) vintage? (I love Guastavino catalan-style tile vaults, so I am curious what the problems were with it.)
  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    This was actually going some place before it turned funny. I must confess (mea culpa) that I took an Acoustics of Music class at University from a renowned acoustician, (He could simply look at the materials in a Nave, Auditorium, rehearsal hall, or concert hall and give a pretty tight rundown on it's properties.) but only for one semester. I don't know if this the classic, "a little knowledge can be dangerous" type of situation or not, but I can add what I know. The study of acoustics is both a science and an art. To be able to measure, in scientific terms, the properties of a space is only part of the answer. You don't have to know the coefficient of absorption, or sabin units, or what a Helmholz resonator is to find out what you need to get the desired sound. The rule of thumb is to have hard, thick reflective surfaces that equalize the resonance. You can play with a hall that has too much bass or too shrill by changing the surfaces. After taking the class, I bought some fiberglass, one foot square tiles for my very small rehearsal room at home. They were there to absorb some of the tone on my bass trombone (and God knows it needed absorption). They typical Nave really needs to have the most reflection and the least absorption possible. This is a two edged sword, as very bright (loud upper overtones) halls can give you a high note headache. Of course no parallel walls. It's amazing how many Naves i've been in that have the telltale flutter echo: a sure sign of parallel walls. Currently I'm working to have the thick carpeting at Holy Trinity Episcopal Church (Nevada City, CA, est. 1854) ditched in favor of some hard, reflective surface. It was after talking with an old timer in that congo that remembers the 100 year old, 8 inch wide, 1-1/2 inch thick, tongue and groove hardwood plank floors that had wonderful acoustics for music. Most of the rest of the walls are hard alabaster plaster (the old kind) and wood. The choir loft, which houses both the choir and our 1960 Tracker Organ was carpeted, so I ripped it out myself (with an O.K. from the Vestry) and added hundreds of flooring screws to silence the squeaks. It was the same 1-1/2 inch thick flooring as was originally flooring the Nave and with a little reverb support. The change in sound in the loft was breath taking.The singers could finally hear each other. With the traffic on the bare floor, there is a glossy patina developing, but it's not enough. As an experiment, I purchaced 6-4x8,x1 inch thick sheets of hardboard and painted them with something called porch paint in antique red hue to match our Nave furnishings. (see link below) Then we placed them at the front of the Nave, with clips, in front of the communion rail to see if the Compline singers in that location could hear each other and if there was any more sound being reflected. It made a big difference, but it was only an experiment as we had to remove the faux flooring. So, now I'm going to camp out in the Nave for a few days (Sunday evening paint job) and keep all the doors open and fans going to dissipate the fumes from the porch paint in the loft. So, the flooring material, at least in the loft will be both thick and reflective. Remember, the first thing to go in older peoples' hearing (especially for men) is high frequencies. So, helping out the highs has a pointed benefit. The loft was put up in 1896 in a remodeling effort and is on a slight rake down toward the front (kind of like Symphony Hall in Boston) and has no risers. Searching for acoustic resonance is not a slam-dunk. I had a lady yesterday tell me that she valued the comfort of thick carpeting over any musical resonance-and she's a singer! So, it seems I have a little sales work to do. Our nave:
    https://www.flickr.com/photos/his_cross/15239547231/
    regards, as always, jefe
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    Wonder how new that carpet is: I don't recall it from my 8th & 9th Summers there.
  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    Mix,
    It depends on how old you were in your 8th and 9th summers. AFAIK, the carpeting went in before the sesquicentenial year, around 2003 or 04. One woman in the congo who was into window dressing spearheaded the effort to get that cozy, warm and fuzzy, expensive carpet. In the previous 150 years, the floor was thick, tongue and groove hardwood planks. Jeanie and I did not arrive on scene until 2006.
    BTW, in looking again at the photo above, I'm reminded that all the woodworking in the Nave, including the pews and other furnishings was done by one pioneering Anglican in the 1870's who had a sawmill in town. This wouldn't be much of an asterisk on history, except for the fact that he had ONLY ONE ARM!
    A couple more facts for your acoustical file. The ideal number of feet from the stage floor of a concert hall to the ceiling at the proscenium. That number is 41 feet. The ideal shape for any serious musical setting is the shoe box with a 41 foot proscenium. Why I've stored all this useless info is beyond me.
    regards, as always, jefe
    Thanked by 2Richard Mix CHGiffen
  • jefe
    Posts: 200
    Yet one more comment. Seems anyone can claim to be an acoustical expert, based solely on what they hear, and their built-in bias, one way or another. I remember being at an outdoor band concert that was amplified and hearing the 2nd flute drown out the brass section. My suspicions were confirmed when I met the sound engineer for the show who proudly wore a Grateful Dead T-shirt.