Latin pronunciation
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,076
    in our very small parish, our very small choir is greatly in need of a second soprano (that is, an additional soprano to the only one we have).

    There is a lady here with a good voice, good range... who unfortunately also has a longtime habit that drives me buggy when I hear it ... of singing 'sae kew la sae kew lo rum" . . . .
    not many things get on my last nerve but I know this would if not amended very soon.

    I hope some of you will be able to suggest some charitable and effective ways to help her change this? I have a feeling it would not be easy for her.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Hmm... if it t'were me perhaps

    I would converse with her and happen to bring up '...that you have an interesting pronunciation of saeculorum. Where you say "sae-kew-lo-rum" most of us follow the pronunciation guides in the chant books and say "sae-koo-lo-rum". Where did you learn your pronunciation?,,,,, Would you be willing to sing this word as we do when singing with us, so that we have a unified choral sound? We really would like to have you in our choir!' (You may or may not want to get her in the choir before addressing this matter??) If she is friendly about it you could spend a little time with her, getting her to say 'sae...koo...law...rum - koo, koo...' and so forth.

    Is she a native American? European? I've never heard any native American pronounce this word that way.

    This might be a harmless, diplomatic respectful, and encouraging approach???
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I wouldn't ask an individual singer to explain the source of her pronunciation.

    It might help to give the choir members a sheet with guidance on Latin pronunciation, using common words or names to illustrate the vowels: "Maria", "gloria", "nunc", "et". (Maybe even Italian words: "lasagna", etc.)

    Specifically, to correct the pronunciation of "u", I'd point to words that the whole choir is probably pronouncing in the conventional way: "Spiritui", "nunc"; and just urge everyone to be aware of the "u" sound and treat it similarly in "saecula saeculorum".

    It's not unusual that choir members might have learned some different rules under a different teacher; that's OK, but no one should feel put out if you ask them to follow the Italian style, since it's most common in this country.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Casavant Organist
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    ...wouldn't ask...

    I defer to Chonak's wisdom.
    One shouldn't likely question an individual's speech... at least unless one were a good friend with whom such things were a normal and enjoyed part of their relationship.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Don't ask. You could acknowledged that many people learn different pronunciations, but that in order to achieve the blend and pitch you seek from the group, they need to follow your pronunciation guidelines.
    Thanked by 3Adam Wood M. Jackson Osborn JL
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The important thing is to make sure you don't imply that her pronunciation is wrong or stupid. You need to communicate the true fact (which you need to come to believe), that choral pronunciation rules (whether received or invented by you) are about group consistency. She, and everyone else, needs to adjust so everyone sounds the same, not so that everyone sounds [Italian / British / highly educated / effete / etc.].

    BTW - This is one of the reasons various forms of "indigenous" choral singing sound so powerful, and even beautiful. A group of untrained singers who all grew up together in an insular culture are going to have remarkably similar vowel shapes. (cf. That British folk band singing that Latin Christmas song that everyone likes.)
    Thanked by 6Liam CHGiffen Casavant Organist Andrew_Malton canadash eft94530
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Adam

    +1

    And choristers who resist need to let go of the (often subconscious) need to be faithful/loyal to their prior directors or teachers of pronunciation.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Also need to cease to believe, if necessary, that there is such a thing as "correct Latin pronunciation".
    Thanked by 6Casavant Organist Liam canadash Adam Wood CHGiffen CharlesW
  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,076
    thanks all of you!

    I realized that we do actually have a new singer (male), who has had no real exposure to chant, and I'm thinking that if I can present to two instead of one, maybe it won't hit so hard when this lady realizes she'll need to make a change.

    I appreciate all of your help. Enjoy the Colloquium, those of you who are going, and bring us some wonderful new posts.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    You could, reasonably, ask the question (Socratic-like) "What happens when we sing the same vowel differently within our part, or across parts"?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Socratic questioning is annoying. It's only tolerable if you don't mind "wasting" time, which is not the case in choir rehearsals. He'd have lived longer if he'd used another teaching method.
    Thanked by 5Adam Wood tomjaw Spriggo Liam CCooze
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 242
    Determining the technical details of musical art is hardly the place for Socratic dialogue, which is concerned with ultimate truths. Chonak -- he lived to be 70 or close to it, which is a good long life in ancient Greece. Given the debt that Western philosophy owes to Plato's Socrates, you might have a little more respect for the man and his methods.

    My method of dealing with vowel unification issues is to remove consonant sounds and sing only on vowel sounds. I often find that the problem is one syllable earlier than it sounds to the ear. This helps to pinpoint the problem areas, zero in on them, fix them, and drill drill drill. The key part, once individual vowel sounds are unified, is practicing the transitions from one to another, and 'de-diphthongizing' them.

    Once the vowel sounds are purified through their transitions to an acceptable degree, I ask the choir to 'gently' add the consonants back in. Inevitably, some of the vowels degrade again, so we fix those, and by the end it sounds like a different choir -- at least until the next week when they have forgotten everything.

    Over a period of years, your core group of singers will absorb the essentials into muscle memory and silently (and unintentionally) exert a powerful influence over your less experienced members, provided the latter haven't come into the choir with a chip on their shoulders.
    Thanked by 2chonak M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    About the august 'Socratic method', I'll take a seat somewhere betwixt Chonak and JonLaird.

    Good choral techniques, though, Jon.
    Ah! about that
    ...when they have forgotten...
    it does indeed too often seem that too many rehearsals are three steps forward and one and a half back.
    Thanked by 1JonLaird
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Because most volunteers in typical Catholic choirs only review the music during rehearsal. Unlike the DM, they are not typically rehearsing on their own, unless they have at least yeoman keyboard skills or are given MP3 files to rehearse with. It always stuns me when DMs are stunned by this reality.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CCooze
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    It is good for all of us to remember the realities of little or non-existent musical training of most volunteer choir members which Liam highlights. I am not stunned, however, by them, but given cause to be very appreciative and often in awe of what can be accomplished by our musical amateurs.

    It is good to note, though, that some of these choir members have been known to give their music genuine effort at home through the week. Also, many of them (like the population at large) regularly hum, sing, whistle, whatever, music that they like at all sorts of times and places. For choir members this may be and often is their choir pieces. When I was younger my mind through the week would be an embroidery of things we were working on in choir - as well as hymns, chant psalmody, and other music. I don't believe that I was unique in this. Music, for a great many people is a natural and necessary component of a healthy mind. For many, especially choir sorts, this music will be to a great extent choir music.

    Still, there is the re-learning factor that sometimes asserts itself at week-by-week rehearsals. This is, I think, a normal thing which is even not a stranger in school class rooms. It simply takes time and re-hearsal for all of us to learn things in a presentable fashion. If it takes some of us weeks or months to learn an organ piece (and sometimes even we have to learn all over what we thought we had taught ourselves yesterday - we have days when we sit down to a well practiced piece and playing it is as though we had never seen it before), how can we but be patient and considerate in teaching our choristers.

    It is nothing but joyous to see people learn what they would never have thought that they could learn and see them feel proud of it, uplifted, accomplished, and grateful. And, this that I have just said about our choirs, I say as well about our congregations - which is food for thought for certain clergy, and even certain choirmasters.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen mmeladirectress
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    The complaining about forgetful singers might cause one to wonder which is more efficient: to tell them what to do or to spend the time for them to come up with the answer themselves? Calling Dr. Berthalot...
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Jackson, and others,

    I didn't mean "be annoyingly pedantic" and I'm sorry that this is what everyone else understood by "Socratic". I've discovered that in many educational settings the culture of wounded egos is so great as to forbid (or render ineffective) direct teaching on such things. If I ask them what happens, I am encouraging them to listen and reflect, which is good for musicians and those aspiring to be same.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,960
    David Hughes does this very well in his Colloquium choirs.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    this


    I don't know David Hughes from Adam, but I'm going to guess that, since it appears you intend a compliment, "this" refers to "encouraging them to listen and reflect".
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    ...David Hughes from...

    um, which Adam?

    (Neither do I.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Here's David with a choir of kids and of sisters:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qcvcE9upYHc
  • JesJes
    Posts: 576
    I can recommend talking to Stephen Leek from Brisbane who incorporates "difficult" words into vocal warmups where everybody has to match the previous person (Chinese whispers style) and sing out loud in a circle.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,960
    CGZ, yes, what you described is what David does.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Adam Wood. David Hughes? Hmmm..
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