Is there a name for...?
  • scholistascholista
    Posts: 109
    Is there a name for the hybrid of chant notation and modern notation? Anyone know the history of this hybrid notation that is used in the Roman Missal?
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    In my copy of the 2011 OF Roman Missal, the musical notation has : five lines, treble clef, no time signature and few bar lines, no accidentals, tail less round puncta, lots of slurs and ties (to represent longer neumes -- no repercussion!). The occasional liquescent is marked by a smaller round punctum. A breve symbol (open round note surrounded by vertical strokes) is used for reciting notes.

    Is that the notation you mean?
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  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    Want to field this one, Fr. Anthony Ruff?
  • scholistascholista
    Posts: 109
    Is that the notation you mean?

    Yes!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Modern Chant-like Notation for the Neumophobic.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    It's a form of modern notation: non-mensural round notation
  • Interesting, isn't it?, that presumably intelligent people suddenly become mentally challenged when presented with a mere four lines instead of five... plus, horror of horrors, you ask them to calculate from a movable clef. One would think it was the proverbial 'rocket science', wouldn't one? Poor things. I pity them not. It's nothing more than deliberate mental laziness and purposefully chosen ignorance.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    Oh, stop that condescending nonsense. Americans are far less musically literate than they used to be and carrying around multiple music notation systems in their heads when reading music has become a marginal activity for most is not *necessarily* those things.

    Musicians can be their own worst enemies.
  • Oh, tush! Defense of the defenseless is disappointing. There is nothing at all 'condescending' here. Square notation is not problematic for large numbers of congregations and clerics who just simply look at it and sing it. It is really a more self-evident system to many than modern notation. Those who become panic stricken at the sight of it are not to be pitied in their wholly negative choice, their pretended, cultivated, and coddled idiocy with regard to music.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Square notes died out along with Gregorian chant for a long time, maybe centuries. When the French monks brought chant back, it was about as clear and understandable as cuneiform to ordinary people. It actually may have never been readable to the majority of folks outside of clergy, choirs, and cantors. I would not be at all surprised if the majority of people born after Vatican II have never seen square notes, or know of Propers, or Latin masses.

    Yes, square notes are easy to learn. I actually thought modern notation was also easy to learn. But with the square notes, you first have to convince Catholic musicians and congregations that there is any valid reason to learn them. Remember, we on the forum like chant. Many others do not and want to neither see nor hear it, much less understand how to read it.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    As I said, musicians can be their own worst enemies.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    ... returning to the original question...

    I find that the English Hymnal 1906 uses square notes for its plainsong.

    I find The Book of Common Praise 1936 and other Willan-edited plainsong uses modern notation, but quavers (eighth-notes) with tails, and tie bars to represent the neums. These are mostly hymns, of course, and so not very melismatic. Longer (dotted or episema'd) notes are written as quarter-notes. In his preface to The Canadian Psalter 1963 Willan writes an apologia for the choice of modern notation ("After very careful consideration, it has been deemed advisable..."), so the question of which notation to use was alive in the early 60s.

    I find the 1962 Roman Missal uses square notes, but again precious few neums: most of the chants are syllabic.

    My 1965 St Joseph Daily Missal uses modern notation, except with crochets/quarter notes for the syllabic beat, slurs for the neums, and minims/half notes when lengthened. (Its Paschal dismissal is written in the barred-eighth-note modern style, for some reason.)

    I have a Polish book from 1971 that uses square notes for chant and modern notation for metrical hymns; and a later one from the 80's (printed 2013) that uses the barred-eigth-note style.

    The only two books I have that use tailless puncta (as in the original question) are the Catholic Book of Worship and the latest Roman Missal. (The CBW puts a baroque trill sign over the quilisma, astonishingly.) I know I have seen tailless black notes in other modern editions, including of secular music, but I can't find it or remember now.

    I suspect though that the idea of writing non-metrical music using tailless round note heads on five lines is ... quite recent. Like the O.P., I'd like to know more about this.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    It is really a more self-evident system to many than modern notation.


    This is true from a pedagogical perspective as well, especially since they really don't represent anything as abstract as specific pitches or keys: just pitch relationships. It was invented for singing chant, and is particularly efficient for notating vocal music: just what it was created for. I've had more success teaching children to read modern notation after they have learned the basics of square notes first.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    https://youtu.be/wYXFSbLotSU

    I'm with you fellas. There are no macros to be applied for all situations. If you can, CAN teach neumes as well as notation, they will learn. (If you build it....)
    Caveat pro- if the intuitive, inventive improvising gifted organist has perfect pitch, then adjusting the final to suit your voices won't suffer by pre-fab accompaniments being fixed.
    Caveat nay- do not use hybrid notation if it can be avoided, which it can in virtually all circumstances. It's like the film "The Fly," be afraid, be very afraid of what may come to pass.
    PS, despite francis' hearty endorsement of Bruce F's AG, it is a superior and yet problematic work. But where it does not work well anymore is in the visual information area, neume "clusters" are more expeditious than long streams of slurred note heads; they become a distraction.
  • ...musicians can be their own worst enemies...

    ...and some of them are in our own ranks.

    Square notation is, objectively, incredibly easy to decipher, not at all arcane, and is, in fact, rather fun to give life to, and deliriously liberating. There are quite a few congregations and priests around who find no difficulty at all with it. As for those who do find difficulty with it, some objective observation will reveal that it's a deliberately cultivated negative attitude, guardedly shut mind, and a childish, tight-lipped 'I'm not going to, just because I don't want to' that is the real problem. A child could absorb it in five minutes - providing his parents and teachers haven't already shut his mind for him. (And, if any person in our civilisation has never seen chant notation or heard chant before I would like to know what planet he or she was reared on. Our cultural markers are more accessible and revealed through all kinds of media to all strata of society now more than they have ever been in history.)

    As for what is the name of the notation in the missal, I haven't heard of one inside or outside of church and academia. I and most just refer to it as 'note heads', which is really all it is, which, somehow, is better than quavers! Perhaps Bruce Ford has a name for it, since he uses it.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    I've seen it described as 'modern notation'
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    MJO, this is after all the Year of Mercy. Besides, this is beginning to remind me of Animal Farm: is it really more admirable to balk at TAG's five-line staff that at the four-line kind? I suppose we'll have to start blushing about not playing from the even more intuitive German organ tablature.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    is particularly efficient for notating vocal music

    I find it very difficult to chant without the clustering of notes per syllable easily visible.

    Also, I don't think I would have persuaded the editor to put the Asperges in our newsheets in modern notation, much too much space. I will know by lunchtime whether it made any difference to the dismal participation from the congregation last time we used it (and yes I know it should be an Easter text, but that is still a step too far).
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 354
    I suspect though that the idea of writing non-metrical music using tailless round note heads on five lines is ... quite recent. Like the O.P., I'd like to know more about this.


    It is employed in the unified German Catholic hymnal "Gotteslob" (1975).
    A different flavour can be found in the much praised "Nova organi harmonia" (194x).

    Certainly we can find some examples still older than this.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Well, by quite recent I mean since about 1970, all my own earlier books using something else.

  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    The earlier version of the Nova Organi Harmonia from the 1910s(?) that can be found at CCWatershed also uses it.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,956
    I have a book from the 1930s on the liturgical ceremonies which uses modern notation. I also saw a French handmissal from the 1950s, which was beautifully done except for the modern notation. I can’t make heads or tails of it. Square notes made sense even before I learned to read them.

    Square notes would be something of a challenge for most clerics, but they have an even harder time with the missal as written IMHO.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Matthew: with tailless note heads, or quavers? Can you post a page?
  • rarty
    Posts: 96
    Well it is an improvement than some of the older systems. Beginning in the mid 60's, (American) Missals started to use individual tailed 1/8 and 1/4 notes for every syllable. The notation used in the new English Missal—though not the best option IMO—is at least cleaner and easier to read than that.

    Anyways, the specific features/compromises of the Missal's notation (which "ICEL has developed") is explained/justified on the ICEL website (starting on p. 19).
  • We had the rogation day litany and May crowning procession to the outdoor shrine after mass at Walsingham this morning. The Marian antiphon was printed in the service folder in chant notation. Strange! You should have heard how our people sang it. Ditto the antiphons to the liturgy of the palms on Palm Sunday. All the Good Friday chants right out of Palmer-Burgess. Ditto lots of other similar stuff. No one blinks or gasps or groans or doesn't sing. They just, every one of them, sing it. Heartily. Are they going to be daunted by square notes!? Absolutely not! They wouldn't think of it.

    Now, mind you, I wouldn't ask them to sing a complicated, highly neumatic or melismatic chant, but singing normal congregational chants in chant notation presents absolutely no obstacle to hearty participation.

    Our people do sing the Kyrie cum jubilo as Englished in The Hymnal 1940 (and do so heartily!). Granted it's in quavers, but I suspect that if we put square notes in the service folder they would quickly realise that they know it and immediately make sense of it. All one needs to do is to give people credit for being as smart as Ordinariate folks, which I have no doubt that they are, and expect them to act like grown ups. As with children, so it is with adults - it isn't what they can or can't learn, it's what their teachers can (or can't) teach.

    Paedagogical note: if one is starting from scratch, introduce a few simple chants in slowly, things that no one of normal intelligence could fail to fathom. Just one or two easy examples over time - really easy, like responses, dialogue, and such. After a while, give them more; something like square notes to a hymn they know well, like 'Humbly I adore thee', or Jesu dulcis. And go on from there. Sneak it in little by little - if that's really what you have to do. There is no excuse for a mentally healthy person to have apoplexy at the sight of four lines instead of five, and neumes instead of a boring slew of note heads.

    Walsingham isn't the only place in Houston at which the people sing chant notation. There are others. And, there are others on this forum. And there are others all around the country.

    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,704
    @ CharlesW

    It actually may have never been readable to the majority of folks outside of clergy, choirs, and cantors.


    This is true, but we should remember how many (or the percentage of) people in the middle ages were clergy, choir, cantors... I can't imagine anyone that had received an education from say c. 500-1500 in Europe not to have known or been able to read some form of chant notation.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    As with children, so it is with adults - it isn't what they can or can't learn, it's what their teachers can (or can't) teach.


    Some things can't be taught, but are still necessary for learning, though. Such as attitude. You can't write a lesson plan for that. You can model it, you can ask for it, you can even provide evidence showing that the student succeeds more often when he or she exudes a positive attitude, but you cannot make the student adopt it unless they want to. It's the whole "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink," scenario. At some point, the student must take ownership of his or her learning: a student who does not want to learn will not learn, no matter how talented the teacher is.

    RANT BEGINS HERE

    I'm not sure what it is about our current society that thinks that the only model of a great teacher is the one who has this magical ability to make students want to learn, or the one who makes learning fun, as if a teacher that doesn't do those things is a complete failure and shouldn't be teaching. Secondly, we're hyperfocused about rooting out bad teachers and eliminating them from positions; so much, in fact, that we see things that really aren't there many times. As a result of this, we have seen increased teacher accountability, sometimes in areas that are really not under the control of the teacher (and in some cases are in the domain of the administrator!), increased emphasis on standardized test results, and increased turnover in the profession. The last one is understandable, as the first two create what is essentially an inherently hostile profession.

    END OF RANT

    My apologies for the rant. Sometimes, you've just got to get it out there. As to the comment above: it's not all about what the teacher can or can't teach, although I do agree that students can learn anything you can teach them. The success or failure of the student, however, requires the efforts of student and teacher. The teacher is not responsible for every aspect of student learning: some of it is the student's responsibility. The student must be diligent in completing his assignments, and must take personal ownership of his learning. He must be dedicated to learning the content, and willing to follow the instructions of the teacher to the letter in order to get there.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Having taught for years, I understand what you are saying. The educational establishment parochial and public is screwed up. I looked forward to reaching retirement age and getting out of it.


    Heartily. Are they going to be daunted by square notes!? Absolutely not! They wouldn't think of it.


    No one is daunted by square notes. People tend to sing melodies more from memory than what is on the page, to begin with.

    There is no excuse for a mentally healthy person to have apoplexy at the sight of four lines instead of five, and neumes instead of a boring slew of note heads.


    I know this may be a shock, but the majority of Catholics are just as bright, just as handsome, and just as above average as the enlightened folks at Walsingham, without the obvious burden of being former Episcopalians - and some of you are not even that. Folks just are not buying and don't want what you offer. That is the problem, not what they can or can't do. Many have outright rejected that model and have replaced it with something else. I didn't say the replacement is in any way desirable.

    I don't have the solution to all this, but do see a real disconnect between the factions in the U.S. church. It is almost as if the "Latin" church has split into two churches for any practical purposes. The problem is not just the laity, which tends to follow along anyway. The members of the clergy are split into two camps, as well. Somehow, we have to find a better way to market and sell what we have to offer and make people want it. The fact that Adelbert the fishmonger did it a certain way in 1055 just doesn't wash anymore as valid reasoning for doing anything.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,956
    Like this. It was not uncommon, but I am much more comfortable with square notes, since I can use solfège...
    3264 x 2448 - 2M
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I can't imagine anyone that had received an education from say c. 500-1500 in Europe not to have known or been able to read some form of chant notation.


    After the fall of Rome, education in the general population declined greatly. Those who received an education were a minority at the top of the heap. It wasn't unusual for even members of the nobility to be unable to read or write. Since very little secular music from the earliest times has survived, it is hard to say what notation system they were using, if any.

    I included a link to some very early music on the thread "Cantus Mariales (1903) republished in facsimile edition." The scholars were able to reconstruct and play what that particular music actually sounded like. Fascinating!
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    In German this kind of notation is called "Eierkohlen-Notation". No idea, how to translate this into English.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    Eggs & cabbages notation.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Like this. It was not uncommon, but I am much more comfortable with square notes, since I can use solfège...


    You can use solfege with any music and with square, shape, or round notes. I grew us hearing shape note singers in this area use it when I was very young. It is common in my area and some Protestant churches nearby still use it. It works with any notation when you "sing the notes" as the shape note people say.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Eierkohlen are charcoal briquets.
    Thanked by 3Liam igneus CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,956
    Charles, the thing is, I really learned modern notation with the arrangement of the named notes and pitches for the bass clef. I can with some difficulty apply the note names to tenor parts written with a treble clef. (I was taught the treble clef but as I began on trombone, I never used it, so I didn’t internalize it...) When I started singing, I learned solfège with square notes. Modern notation does not convey the chant effectively, even with using solfège. In fact, in my sister’s choir, the singers only use solfège. (She is 15.) But if I have a choice for something in square vs. round notes (and, God forbid, something like I posted!) I go for square every time.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I don't see so much difference, but I have always been one who will work with whatever I have at the moment. Some think they can only play trackers. I listened to similar nonsense in the early 60s when organists would ask, "Is the Great enclosed?" Enclosed or not you can play either. Same with trackers or anything other. Square vs. round notes. You can sing from both. If you are singing chant you are probably singing what Solesmes thought chant should be. Does it bear any degree of accuracy to chant in the year 900? Maybe not, but who knows. These distinctions get so fine they border on nitpicking. Take what you have and make beautiful music with it.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Eierkohlen are charcoal briquets.

    And the earlier usage of such "briquets" for notes were square-ish, not round ... I've seen them in Proske's Musica Divina and other places ... quite old. They were basically imitations of (or derived from) square puncta.

    I've also seen squarenote/neume notation on five-line staves with modern clefs (Tenor G-clef-8vb, Bass F-clef) ... with key signatures!

    What will be next?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    However the spacing makes it more difficult to chant from the organ accompaniment!
    BTW here is a picture of eierkohlen.
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