French vs. English Organs
  • kpoterack
    Posts: 27
    I am in the process of deciding what sort of an organ to install in our new chapel. Definitely an orchestral as opposed to a neo-Baroque organ. However, there is some disagreement between me and the organ teacher about what sort of an orchestral organ. I love French organs; he loves English. There are some 'ecumenical' points of contact in that he admits he likes "fiery French reeds" and I admit that I enjoy the "Anglican mist" of the celestes on some of the English organs - although I find some of the English organs to be too tubby, at least at their worst.

    Are there good examples of 'hybrids' which I could listen to and/or builders who are good at achieving such a compromise? Any advice, suggestions, recommendations, cautions, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanked by 2Jes NihilNominis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    My own experience is that French strings can be a bit reedy, and the lush romantic string sounds comes from the English strings. You are correct the English and French reeds sound different. If the organ is large enough and you have the funds, you can have both. Have you heard the Harrison and Harrison at Coventry? It is English, but has, as has been said, some "continental fire" built into it. You can have most anything you want, if you have the funds.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Well, when I think of French organs, I immediately think of that of Cathédral Ste-Cécile in Albi, one of the few that missed the smelter's furnace during the Wars of Revolution:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3Nhg-cnKx8

    If I could travel to France, it's the organ I'd like to hear in person.

    http://mypipeorganhobby.blogspot.com/2009/01/albi-cathedral-france.html


    Thanked by 3Salieri eft94530 BruceL
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    The new organ going into St. Michael's Cathedral in toronto is meant to have reedy sounds but also nice english sounds, to fit nicely repertoire from French Baroque, English Baroque and 19th century American as well.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Who is the builder?
  • kpoterack
    Posts: 27
    Haven't chosen one yet. Whom would you recommend?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I don't know where you are located. Are there any builders in your region?

    I was asking Noeisdas who the builder is for the St. Michael's organ.
  • kpoterack
    Posts: 27
    We are in Virginia. I was tentatively thinking of Lively-Fulcher (in state) , which has done some nice French style organs. My associate likes Charles Kegg in Ohio which tends to do more English-style, but not exclusively. Agree? Disagree? Any other recommendations?
  • OrganistRob320OrganistRob320
    Posts: 157
    My 1951 Casavant was a wonderful hybrid. All the snarl and fire of French Reeds that could also be pure when reigned in by the swell shades and principals in the Swell and a principal sized string chorus in the Choir that were as English as it gets.

    Here is the organ at the English side
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrMn2jEMYK8

    And a taste of the French
    https://youtu.be/ktPKX5QJJHg

    Both of my undergraduate recitals were on Lively-Fulcher instruments. They definitely have the French style.
    Personally I'd give a listen to any number of organ recordings from the great English Cathedrals. Many of the organ albums feature the great French literature.
    Also, remember many of the English organs are voiced so boldly to fill those vast spaces with sound in every corner.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    We are in Virginia. I was tentatively thinking of Lively-Fulcher (in state) , which has done some nice French style organs. My associate likes Charles Kegg in Ohio which tends to do more English-style, but not exclusively. Agree? Disagree? Any other recommendations?


    Both good companies. Hasn't Kegg done away with the need to ever releather?
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    As a francophile in many areas of my life, personal and otherwise, I understand your desire. Buzard comes to mind as someone who has managed both French and English perspectives well. I also think Letourneau could do it also. My .02
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    @CharlesW Casavant. It was said that it would change the organ scene in Toronto, because of its flexibility. http://casavantfreres.com/Jimdo/ProjectsTables/ProjectsPages/3907-Toronto.html
    Thanked by 2CharlesW BruceL
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Kurt, you should message me ;) I think we could share notes.

    L-F and Kegg are both excellent. Kegg's tonal director is now with Parkey (in Atlanta): I don't know how Kegg's more recent projects have come out. I would say Kegg is eclectic. Calling them "English-style" is probably not at all accurate. In any case, let me know how I can help. I've literally spent the last year researching all this for St. Paul's.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I'm normally partial to French organs: the aforementioned fire in the reeds is particularly attractive. On a side note, does anyone know anything about organs in Poland? I'm interested in knowing whether the style of organs in Poland is more French influenced (through the French influence on Russian court and society) or German influenced (through proximity to Germany). The frequent foreign rule of the country by either the Germans, the Russians, or both, especially during the time of the partitions makes either one equally possible. Just wondered if anyone could help with that. If so, please PM me, so we don't completely hijack the original thread.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    As far as I know Poland is more influenced by central German organ building. E.g. similar to Saxonia and Pomerania already baroque organs in Poland often have strings in their disposition. Even farther to the East in Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia the organs were mostly influenced or even built by German organ builders. For example the organ in the cathedral of Riga was built by Walcker.

    Since the Russians don't use organs in church I doubt there were many organs in the Russian empire that could have influenced Polish organ building, especially since Catholic worship was often suppressed by the Russian authorities.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    CK, my brother is an organist dating a Polish organist! I'll ask Aga what she thinks about styles! I think Polish instruments are generally "Central European" (i.e., more Germanic).
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Considering how many things in Poland were destroyed in the Deluge, the Partitians, the Napoleonic Wars, the Russian occupations, and the 20th century, I doubt that the French would have had much of an opportunity for a lasting influence organ on making there.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz BruceL
  • JesJes
    Posts: 574
    Yes there are lots of hybrids!
    Many Irish organs seem to have the French reeds and English strings.
    Most of the spare ranks of pipes we get in Aus from USA help to make our hybrid organs. I'd be getting your favourite organ then adding ranks of pipes from other organs to it. Most organ builders will hear something along the grapevine so make sure to get in their ear.
  • Allan DAllan D
    Posts: 43
    The Muller company (http://www.mullerpipeorgan.com) tends to favor the American Classic style, so if you're looking to combine French and English influences, they might be an option to consider.
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 517
    There's at least one French-style organ in Kraków—St. John Cantius. I'm using the Hauptwerk sample set of the organ (free!). Google St. John Cantius Sample Set to hear it. Nicer than many commercial sample sets...
    Thanked by 2BruceL Jes
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I have no idea of the quality of Muller, but most American builders working in an EP/electric slider scenario are going to be "American Classic".
  • kpoterack
    Posts: 27
    Thanks, guys. This has been very helpful! Any other comments you have about this topic or builders would be appreciated.
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    I was with Visser-Rowland Assoc. in Houston for many years, and had a hand in the U.T. organ. I still like the concept - a concert worthy organ that can treat both English and French music, and even Baroque convincingly, but STILL lead an inspire a congregation when called upon to do so. I don't know what Visser Organs are up to these days.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoLJYOlnE_I
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Listening to the Ireland Greater Love brought back memories. My choirmasters always observed an allargando at "That ye should show forth...", not an accelerando.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    That Poulenc piece is new to me. I like it. I like the organ, too.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Steve, many of us have a slightly strained relationship with ol' Pietro...he does things like admits in a doctoral dissertation interview that he underscaled all the pedal divisions of his instruments up to the late 80's (a severe deficiency in bass-anemic rooms like Bates)...then attacks people on Facebook when they quote him on it. He does things like builds an instrument with great potential (and some stunning strengths) like the UT instrument, then sabotages it by refusing to repack the stoppers in a pedal gedackt that ROUTINELY GOES OUT OF TUNE DAYS AFTER TUNING.

    I really do want to like his work, but my goodness, he could have been another Charlie Fisk if he was just less disagreeable and...Dutch!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    I knew Pietr for many years and still consider us good friends, though our paths very rarely cross any more. I first met him in the 60's, at which time he was with Wicks and voiced a cymbal for the St Ambrose organ that was as delicate as shimmering silver thread. The UT instrument was one of his tours de force, and there were others, both in Texas and around the country, which should give him high repute as a major builder. The comparison to Fisk is not at all misplaced. On the other hand, there are quite a few small instruments which he put in churches in the greater Houston area which are absolutely non-descript. About his pedal divisions, they were, indeed, the weakest divisions of some of his organs. And, he added a 16' principal to the Holtkamp at Trinity Lutheran which hardly provided more substance than the original subbass. Then, he added a mixture III to the positive which he never regulated and which even I found rare use for because of its raucus timbre. He was for many years an adjunct lecturer at Rice's Shepherd School of Music, though I think he isn't any more.

    The notes to the dedication of Reuter's renovation of this organ refer to changes made in the 80's by 'a local builder'. This disparaging slur is contemptibly inapt, for the best of Pietr's work is as good as anyone's - certainly putting Reuter's work somewhere over in the shade. How Reuter ever got to be any more than 'a local builder' is beyond me.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    Among other instruments by other builders, I play a Reuter on a weekly basis, and it's...adequate, at best.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The recital hall in my college had/has a large Reuter. With the console on stage and the pipes at the back and above the stage, the distance is not at all great. However, the action is incredibly slow. There is a Reuter in a local church which doesn't seem to have that issue, so I don't know how widespread the problem is. I would describe the college instrument as rather bland. It is in a pretty good room so I don't think that is a problem.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    The reeds in the UT organ are fantastic...but they were "special", I think from Stinkens, at Hap Speller's request. The organ really does have a fantastic Grand Jeu, although that's not the case with Piet's other organs I've played.

    I agree with the Reuter evaluation. If you're ever in Alexandria, LA, their organ there in the cathedral is actually really beautiful, albeit with some really inexplicable missteps (plastic manual keys, anyone?)
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I know this conundrum well. There are a lot of English organs in Australia and even Australian builders tended to be heavily influenced by English builders.

    I must say that I find French Diapasons a bit "hooty" and prefer late 18th century English ones. At the same time I do love the fiery French Reeds.

    You will tend to find that English tastes are geared more towards the singing of hymns and accompanying choirs and continenetal instruments are geared a little more to solo works. There are many exceptions of course.

    I had the opportunity to play a 3 manual Letourneu recently and I did like it but that the Tuba stop had a slightly thinner tone than an English Tromba I've used on an English instrument of similar specification.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CharlesW CHGiffen
  • redsox1
    Posts: 217
    The acoustical environment will play a role in which style to choose. A full-throated French instrument in a dry acoustic can be deadly! On the other hand, some builders tend to "over bake" their tonal finishing on instruments that tend to be more English in style and the result is certainly refined, but lifeless. I would talk to several builders. The firm of Patrick Murphy and Associates may be new to some on this site. I would give them a look. They are based in the Philadelphia area. They did a rebuild for us and were very sensitive to the style of instrument, a 1930's Casavant. Their instruments are refined, yet display the requisite "fire" needed to lead a large congregation and render the romantic organ literature. They are quite versatile in their tonal design, yet are very cohesive. I have found them excellent for literature, choral accompanying, and leading congregational singing. Their low profile consoles are beautifully crafted and work wonderfully for the organist who conducts from the console. PM me if you would like any additional info. Best of luck!
    Thanked by 4CharlesW BruceL CHGiffen Steve Collins
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I'll put forward Parkey in Atlanta, as well. Their tonal director is Frederick Bahr, who was with PJM & Associates for some time and Kegg before that. He's a good guy.

    I was very impressed with the Nichols & Simpson instruments I heard on a listening trip recently. If you have a live room, I think you'd want to ask them to put everything right on the edge, voicing-wise, but their concepts are really genius. For example...

    The customarily put a 1st and 2nd Open Diapason on the Great. If you're me, that generally leads to pictures of either 1) a foghorn-like 1st Open that is useless plus a 2nd that speaks on the slow side and generally doesn't know whether it's the basis of the chorus or not, or 2) a 1st and 2nd that are almost exactly the same intensity, but with the 2nd having more chiff and perhaps a smaller scale.

    Instead, N&S makes the 1st open the right size to build the chorus and also with a good articulation (but no chiff, of course): the 2nd, then, is voiced a little smoother (but smaller), and so it works particularly well for accompaniment, etc. BUT...then you combine them...and you have the weight you would have in ye old foghorn, but without the yuck voicing. I think it's genius!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Steve CollinsSteve Collins
    Posts: 1,021
    To be sure, I was not totally "selling" a Visser to anyone. My point is that a good instrument for worship is primary - repertoire is also important. And the two are not mutually exclusive, nor are various national and historic sounds.

    Also, as has been pointed out, it ALL depends on the room - the acoustics.

    And to that latter point, in argument pro VRA organs in Texas churches: the Pedal divisions were made the way they were out of necessity that two Manuals be mutually filled out and then supported by the Pedal. It also had to do with how much the church or parish was willing to spend. And many of these "non-descript" organs still exist in very much "non-descript" buildings! Believe me, there are many such buildings! I was with VRA for 22+ years - about 100 organs of all sizes.

    And yet the discussion between my two posts are a brilliant reminder of the politics of American organ building, and the reason I choose to NOT be involved with any of them!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Steve, no worries, and I'm not always the best at walking the criticism line!

    Just to be clear: I'm not talking about the pedal divisions being too small, but rather underscaled vis-a-vis the manual divisions. The UT Visser has this issue: you have to pull all the 16's to underpin the fonds d'orgue, even, except the 16' big reed...which is too loud for everything! :)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    All good information here. Some are brands not seen in my part of the country. It is good to know more about them.
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 986
    Hi Dr. Poterack! :-D

    Are you looking at a mechanical or electro-pneumatic action?

    What's going to become of the dear old girl? Is she going the way of all toasters? One of the few digital instruments in the world to which I have a sentimental attachment.
  • lhouston58
    Posts: 52
    kpoterack:

    You didn't mention where the chapel is located or how many people it can accomodate.
    A few U.S builders have built instruments in England. Dobson recently built a wonderful, high-profile organ for Merton College, Oxford: Not surprisingly, it is a grand success.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ja4M0m9eSGk

    They are busy at work constructing the new chancel organ for St. Thomas Church, Fifth Avenue, NYC. Their work is phenominal, to say the least, but they have a lot on their plate right now, so prepare for a wait.

    If you can't wait, Taylor and Boody in Staunton, VA. They built the beautiful tracker in the back gallery in St. Thomas, NYC:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xhThihIIC4

    They don't seem to be too heavily booked at the moment, so give them a call.

    I checked Paul Fritts to see what they would be working on after finishing the huge organ for Notre Dame Basilica in South Bend:

    http://www.frittsorgan.com/opus_pages/galleries/opus_37/specification.html

    but they are already fully booked, which is a very good thing indeed, but if you want somthing soon, the search continues...

    Richards-Fowkes built a very nice organ for Handel's church (St. George's, Hanover Square). Their shop is in OOLTEWAH, TENNESSEE which is near Chattanooga and Knoxville and Atlanta. They build fine instruemts and it did not surprise me when I heard they got the contract to build an organ for such a prestigious locale:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf58pmVaOsw

    The other bright young organ builder here in Tennessee is Bradley Rule:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlazEZkn0a0

    He's a fine builder even though he isn't quite as well known as the others on my list. He can do a lot with a little as you can see with the example above. I don't know where you are, but you should come down to Tennessee and try out some of his organs in person. The one he built for the Unitarians in Knoxville is lovely:

    http://bruleorgans.com/project/tn-valley-unitarian-universalist/
    and:
    http://bruleorgans.com/music/
    Thanked by 2advocatus CHGiffen
  • lautzef
    Posts: 69
    As Rob said way back toward the beginning of this thread, Casavant would be a good choice (if they have kept up their tradition - I have not had any experience with their recent work). We have a 1953 Casavant at Immaculate Conception in Cleveland, and it is surprisingly versatile, as he says. It is also an excellent fit for the space. I play a wide variety of music styles on this instrument and have always been pleased. The one thing I would change would be the balance among the divisions. The Choir is in general too soft in comparison to the Great, so it takes some ingenuity to do certain polyphonic pieces where you want several voices to be balanced (although it can be done).
  • JesJes
    Posts: 574
    Actually interesting point raised by Marc earlier.

    I recently tried a hybrid that also was hybrid organ and hauptwerk. It's incredibly cool. I'd try it and then after settling on the sound preference go and get the necessary stops. It also buys some time to purchase ranks!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have to put in a plug for the Organ Clearing House - fine folks who do a great job. Too bad they don't have money like the animal adoption groups to put dramatic, over-wrought "animal" porn commercials on TV to stir sympathy for their cause. Maybe OCH needs some "organ" porn commercials to stir up sympathy for all the orphan instruments in need of loving homes. LOL.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    here is another less known but excellent option

    http://www.bigeloworgans.com/home.aspx
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Sorry i do not have a builder suggestion.

    what sort of an orchestral organ. I love French organs; he loves English

    And what about German?

    All three together ...


    http://fugatto.free.fr/dudelange.html
    http://www.die-orgelseite.de/disp/LUX_Dudelange_SaintMartin.htm
    http://www.orgue-dudelange.lu/orgue/historique/
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdhMbf6Jri4
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