Starting to sing propers at mass
  • If we were to start with singing one of the propers at mass, which would be the most important? Also, would the Simple English Propers be allowed for use in Canada?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    SEP is usable at any English Mass.

    I would start with the communion antiphon before the hymn.

    Don't forget, you can also sing without verses, so the introit and offertory could also be used right before or after the hymn easily.
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  • If we were to sing at a weekday mass, what propers would we use?
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    I believe all the translations of the propers out right now are from the New American Bible. Canadian Catholic churches use the NRSVCE. That being said, these aren't the "readings." Singing the propers is a good idea even if the translation is not perfect.

    For the weekday Masses I sing the proper as found in one of the daily Missals (for example "Living with Christ.") and use one of the Gregorian tones.
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  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    For weekday propers, we use the ones from the Sunday before, and sing the same ones all week, unless it's a feast day.
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    I would opine that although the communion seems to be commonly considered the one to start with, on account of its being supposedly the easiest, the introit is a better candidate for the most important, as it is more prominent, sort of like a "figurehead" on a ship: it is the chant that marks / distinguishes the Mass, e.g. Requiem, Laetare, Gaudete, Rorate, Puer natus.

    At any rate, this is my experience from the TLM; for better or worse, we started with the introit when we started moving beyond Rossini.

    I wonder though if there is also something about having the introit in place which begs for the rest of the chants to be added and makes it easier to take more steps in that direction.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    In re the Introit: The Entrance Hymn has become so Entrenched as the accompaniment for the Procession that it is a hard habit to break; After all: the Entrance Hymn is a practice that extends all the way to the Olde Dayes when a hymn was sung during the entrance of the ministers before the Asperges Me. Some pastors might object to replacing the Entrance Hymn with the Introit chant, because the Introit is not "festive" enough. I toyed with some alternatives to the Introit chant, namely Healey Willan's Introits, metrical psalms, and finally Tietze/Pluth Introit Hymns, and decided on the Latter. The Communion Chant is probably the best place to start.
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    We started singing all three simultaneously. The refrain from the SEP usually takes all of 20 seconds to sing. Our priest insisted on this when he arrived at our parish.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Regarding what's "allowed" in Canada : has anyone ever heard of a Canadian parish where the choice of sung texts has actually been subject to canonical enforcement?

    In my own parish once a previous pastor came down firmly and IN ALL CAPS to the musicians, forbidding the singing of any introit "because we aren't a monastery". True story. So far more likely to have the propers forbidden because they aren't hymns, rather than because their translation is "wrong".

    (Canadash : lucky you.)

    However, the Simple English Propers use the now-obsolete translation. (It's not an NRSVCE vs NAB issue, but due to the Missal translation revision of 2011.) It might therefore be harder to make the case that you should sing the propers at all, because you can't say "but here they are, right in the missallette", or anything like that. (Of course that argument also wouldn't work for the Offertory anyway.) I would prefer Fr Weber 's simple propers : his setting (iv)s are even simpler than Bartlett's, and do use the current translation.

    All these modern English settings use the Grail in some version or other for the psalm verses. I don't think (**) there is any that presents the Canadian NRSV lectionary psalms for chanting with the propers. But we sing Grail psalms anyway -- from the CBW (albeit a different version of the Grail) -- so that translation family is not unfamiliar (or forbidden!) to Canadian ears.

    In short : the SEP is "allowed" in Canada, but not explicitly and there are better choices.

    Absolutely start with the Communion, for many reasons: people don't mind not singing then; often there is silence until the "Communion hymn" starts anyway; many choirs sing a set piece then anyway; you need a varying-length piece so psalmody is good; and the antiphon text often relates to the Gospel, which gives you a good argument.

    (**) sure, actually
  • My priest probably doesn't know the difference between Veni Creator and an introit. I would be allowed to use Ubi Caritas as the introit.

    Anyways, I will talk and see what happens.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Andrew, SEP has never used the missal translations, it doesn't even use the texts from the missal, they're from the gradual, so that's not an issue. It's a third party transition. In any case, the missal propers don't match the gradual's propers. Since there's no official translation of the gradual, I see no problem with SEP.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Ben: quite right. I was thinking of Rice's book.

    Fact remains though that when the Gradual agrees with the Missal, for an introit or for a communion, the SEP does not use the current liturgical translation (nor, as you rightly point out, the older one). This happens what half the time for the introits, rather less for the communions.

    Which is another good reason to use Fr Weber, because he takes his texts from the Missal.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Here's what we have done:


    Step 1: Communion antiphon from the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual. Minimal verses. Move on to material the congregation is used to.
    (Short explanation of this "new thing" was included in the worship aid.) *

    Step 2: Extend the Communion once it was an established thing. Gloria Patri before final antiphon.

    Step 3: Kathy Pluth's Hymn Tune Introits. Another note in the worship aid reminding folks that, as we had previously read, there are actual texts that are assigned to this moment of the liturgy.

    (remaining steps):
    Step 4: Next year we'll sometimes move to the practice of a processional hymn followed by the chanted Introit as the clergy reaches the Sanctuary.
    (The center aisle will be 4x longer when the new church is completed this summer/fall).

    Step 5: Offertory antiphon, followed by another suitable hymn.



    * You will want to find a way to catechize about this. We opted to do the short bits in the worship aid (and we're doing something else that I'll write about here soon). I know of another local parish where the sermons were focused on sacred music for a number of weeks. The best approach will depend on your particular parish.
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  • It might be easier for our choir to sing the Simple Choral Gradual in unison with organ, but we will see...

    I will take your ideas, I will try to see if we can start with the Communion antiphon, then I will try to start the offertory antiphon, then slowly progress to the Introit. I am hoping my fellow choir members agree, just for one of the 3 masses per weekend...
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,956
    Of course, the reason Bartlett avoided the missal was because he sees the goal as building up to the Graduale Romanum and singing the missal antiphons does not reinforce that "the missal is for reciting, the Graduale is for singing." The explicit permission to sing the missal antiphons, which I think is a bad idea but it is what it is, only extends to these USA as far as I know. I suppose it could be an option (4) variant for Canada; the SEP, being in English, are technically option (4), but the idea is to move in time to (1).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    It might be easier for our choir to sing the Simple Choral Gradual in unison with organ, but we will see...

    I would lobby against this approach. The formulae Richard uses are extremely accessible to the smallest of ensembles (1 per part e'en) and could even be trimmed to SAT if the organ is used.
    The whole point of using (quasi Orthodox) homophony is to create a whole cloth sonority. We've been using them for Communion only (Introit/Offertories feature SEP/AG/Weber/Kelly and soon, Ainslie) for seven years now. We sight sing them on Sundays. After some length of usage a choir can graduate up to Rice's wonderful Choral Communio collection.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    I second melofluent on this: we have been using them, for communion only, for three years. The verses are chanted by a quartet, and the choir sings the antiphon. Gets about two minutes of rehearsal per week. This practice also solves the communion-for-the-choir problem, since the choir members can receive without disturbing the sound, and the quartet receives at the end.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    if you are going to sing English chant, Ford's American Gradual is by far the best musical choice, hands down.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Here's the conundrum with "going back" to the AG, francis, we chant much more fluidly with neumes. Not a bad problem to have, eh?
  • My Tuppence --

    If you start with the Communion Antiphon, you can expand from there into areas which are usually considered "congregational time". If you start with the Introit, it might live side-by-side with a hymn in perpetuity.
  • @francis
    To start, that might be a bit difficult for the choir. Although, maybe to consider doing later, because once they get good, we could do anything...

    I would prefer to do English so that the congregation could understand, and because we don't do worship aids/programs/leaflet(te)s/whatever the heck you want to call them it would be to hard to do Latin without a congregation who understands Latin.

    SEP is my choice, and hopefully I would want to get to Latin after a couple of year cycles.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Just a quick note about the Hymn Tune Introits.

    I agree with what has been said above, that the Communion antiphon is the first and easiest Proper chant to introduce in parishes. It's so easy, in fact, that it can almost slip by unnoticed by any potential nay-sayers.

    The introit, on the other hand, is more difficult. Usually textually longer than the Communio, it sets the tone for the entire Mass. I don't usually have a problem with singing a hymn of praise at the entrance of the ministers, but that does not set the same tone for the Mass as the introit text.

    Since it's hard for many congregations to accept anything other than a hymn at the entrance, at least at first, the Hymn Tune Introits meet people halfway, using the hymn form, and familiar tunes, but with the Proper text. Of course the text is rearranged for rhyme and meter, but a major concern of my editors and me was to keep as much of the original language and sentiment as possible.

    Ordering information, and sample pages, are available on the WLP website.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    When I do introits they are preludes about 5 minutes before mass starts. I wonder...would there be any reason the entrance hymn couldn't be sung first, then the introit after the procession reaches the altar? Has anyone done it that way?
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  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    That's how we do it, Charles. Works well for us.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Circumambulation, Cdub. Too bad most pastors won't give it due consideration as a regular practice on Sundays.
    We chant the Introit immediately between (required) announcements and the Entrance "chant." The only benefit to that format is that it provides a brief moment to typify the Sunday, ala "Jubilate Deo....Quasimodo....Cantate Domino....Laetare Sunday" designation of the calendar.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    we often do a hymn and then Latin or English proper during incensation
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    the AG is really not hard at all. I suggest you look it up. the jump from the AG to the Latin is the easiest transition
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I second (third, fourth) the Communion Antiphon as the first thing, unless...
    If you are already doing a choir-only piece at the Offertory, there's no reason you couldn't do a simple choral setting of the Offertory.

    Also, I recommend the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual over the Simple English Propers. The translations are better (more in line with ICEL's MR3 translations) and the music is more interesting (without being any harder to sing). To use a software term, I consider SEP has been deprecated in favor of LCSG. (Or: SEP was the beta release of what became the LCSG.)

    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • @Adam Wood
    I just took a look at that, and yes, that does look a bit better. Just a bit more difficult because they aren't compiled into one, but maybe that might be a bit better.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    just a bit more difficult because they aren't compiled into one


    I don't understand this. The LCSG is a single book.
  • No, online. I would print the pdfs, easier for the choir.
  • CharlesSA
    Posts: 163
    We started propers by singing Richard Rice's Communion antiphons. Then about a year later our parish purchased the Lumen Christi series, and so we replaced the Rice with the LC Communion Antiphon. This was during Advent 2014. Then, beginning with Lent 2015, we introduced the Introit by saying that for Lent, we were not going to do a hymn but would sing the Introit (exclusively). Once Lent was over, we added the hymn back, and most of the time we do the Introit (antiphon-verse-antiphon) while Father and the servers stand at the door ready to process, and as we finish, they begin walking out and then we do our regular hymn.

    Since then, a few things have happened: this past Advent, we used the Latin for both the Introit and Communion - We did a psalm-toned Introit and the full Communio from the Graduale.

    Then, Father had this idea that since people were to have been exposed to the Latin for four weeks, he decided to make his Midnight Christmas Mass an Extraordinary Form Mass. So that was amazing. We did all of the full propers and a few wonderful choral pieces. After Christmas, we went back to English for antiphons.

    This year we did the same thing as last year for Lent - i.e., no hymn, just the Introit for entrance - except we used Latin psalm-tones again, and we also went back to using the full Latin Communion proper.

    Now, it seems to be our "thing" to always do the Full Latin Communion proper, which, because of that, makes Communion easily my "favorite" part of our OF Sunday "High" Mass. I wish there was a way we could just scrap the entrance hymn...particularly because Father's procession is never very long and so there really isn't time to do both, unless he decides to use incense. But oh well.

    In terms of adding any other propers, well, we flirted with doing the Offertory Antiphon for Easter Sunday (psalm-toned, Latin) before doing our regular hymn, but it didn't happen. I'm hoping that in the near future we can start to do a proper Offertory. The problem with the Offertory is that (again, unless he uses incense), along with the fact that the OF Offertory prayers are a fewer/shorter than the EF ones, our priest barrels through it...haha and so Offertory is always very short. So it would be hard for us to do both an antiphon and a hymn. To which I would personally say "great, then let's just do the proper and say to heck with the hymn" :) I think hymns are fine but frankly, I think hymns are proper to the Divine Office, not the Mass, so I'd always be in favor of ditching hymns at Mass! In favor of one or more of these three things: a) Firstly, the Proper; b) polyphonic/choral piece; or, something which might possibly be overlooked by a lot of music directors, c) silence. I'm not one of those that thinks there always has to be music going on at a High Mass. I recently made a visit to a certain Benedictine monastery (which celebrates the EF only) which, for their conventual/sung Mass, sung only the Propers and the Ordinary - no organ (other than accompaniment of the Kyrie/Gloria/Agnus Dei/Sanctus), no choral music, nothing - just the chants of the Mass. And it was wonderful!

    In terms of Graduals/Tracts and Alleluias, I definitely don't see those happening anytime soon at our parish (unfortunately). It would be interesting, though, to use the full chants at one Mass just to see what people think. Doing the full chants would require a competent schola. I am competent by myself but I don't think the average OF crowd would appreciate a solo chant in place of the Responsorial Psalm or the Alleluia!
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    @CharlesSA: Thanks for your explanation. It was an inspiration! I'm curious, what has the reaction been from the congregation?
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    During Advent and Lent, our children's schola used the Graduale Simplex, followed by the Choral Graduale Simplex as a translation with similar melody. During other times we used SEP. We only did the Offertory and Communion, as we encountered the same problem everyone else does: replacing the Entrance Hymn with the Introit would be "too much of a shock" for the congregation and would probably result in lots of people questioning the practice in front of the pastor, or saying something to the principal, neither of which would have an answer at all for them, and neither of which understand the importance of singing the propers in the first place. Ignorance would win out in the end, and as usual, no one would listen to the expert in the matter.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,768
    don't think the average OF crowd would appreciate a solo chant in place of the Responsorial Psalm
    A solo psalmist is more the rule than the exception, I would think. Here, it was an innovation when I had the choir sing the Guimont verses, and the printed harmonizations often suggest he wasn't thinking much about vocal tessiaturas in the accompaniments either.

    Historically (or perhaps I'd better say prehistorically) the Gradual was a solo chant.
  • @CharlesSA Wow, Father did Extraordinary form mass at midnight for Christmas? Never would that happen around my area! You are so lucky!

  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    although the communion seems to be commonly considered the one to start with, on account of its being supposedly the easiest, the introit is a better candidate for the most important, as it is more prominent, sort of like a "figurehead" on a ship: it is the chant that marks / distinguishes the Mass, e.g. Requiem, Laetare, Gaudete, Rorate, Puer natus.


    THIS. And I would sing it AFTER the "gathering hymn," which is a proper ordering of the musical pieces.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    On a side note, I've always objected to the term "gathering hymn," since that particular part of the Mass is more appropriately a processional: Christ entering the altar of God. To me, it would be more appropriate to treat it as a processional event, not a gathering event. Again, just a side note, not really related to the original topic.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Certainly the Introit is distinguishing and most important, being first. That's why chanting it is so much more resisted. That's why it should not be the first thing to introduce: attack the lower hill first.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Or...use a more forgiving method.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Is it a hymn? Is it the Mass? It's both!

    Kathy's book is really going over well at our parish and its a great transitional tool for liturgical catchesis.
    Thanked by 2Kathy canadash
  • Well I talked to my director, and he said he didn't like the idea of propers at all. This is coming from someone from St. Michael's Choir School, and their Senior choir sings the propers at masses.

    Don't really know what to think about it but I will keep trying to persuade him.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Well I talked to my director, and he said he didn't like the idea of propers at all


    Did he tell you why? Almost sounds like there's an underlying motive to it.
  • doneill
    Posts: 207
    I love a festive hymn as much as the next person, but in theory, I would think that the Gloria should be the apex of the Introductory Rites, and that doing a festive entrance hymn AND a festive Gloria induce liturgical burnout! In people's experience, is a chanted choral Introit more accepted when coupled with a festive metrical congregational Gloria?
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  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    I do feel that a perception on the congregation's part that they are "allowed" to sing a "normal" amount of "uplifting" music is often key to making the transition.
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  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I think a chant Gloria can be really festive, too: just listen to Notre Dame de Paris sometime!
    Thanked by 1doneill
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    The Ambrosian Gloria is VERY festive if sung at a good tempo. We started doing it at our 11:00am Solemn Masses during Ordinary Time this year and I'd noticed that I could hear the congregation behind me not only on the two-note sections but also the melismatic endings before Lent began.
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  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    doing a festive entrance hymn AND a festive Gloria induce liturgical burnout!

    This was common wisdom back in the 70s--with the result that the Gloria was often said rather than sung, or even in some places omitted.
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  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,184
    This was common wisdom back in the 70s--with the result that the Gloria was often said rather than sung, or even in some places omitted


    Still the practice in many parishes in Louisville. And even encouraged....
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,956
    This makes the case for both propers and the pre-1967 form of Sung Mass.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    We have been told not to do the Gloria if it is spoken. It must be sung.