Of course, I wondered where those churches are. I haven't seen any like that, but confess I don't get to very many churches any more.

Now, Noel. Overstating again, I see. My last "interview" was in 2001, and prior to that, 1995 in a Protestant church. Even you were around then, and I still hate trackers.

All good points, ryand, and true. There are good things happening - not everywhere, but many places. The "hell-holes" do exist and some friends have gotten caught in those, but most of the Catholic musicians I know in my area are fairly happy to be where they are.

You can't use that dot. Jackson has a copyright on it. ;-) Also yellow squares.

Thank you, Ryan.

How's this, Ryan:
After our schola Mass a young teen was hovering around the console of our Rodgers, his dad close by. I asked the lad, "Would you like to play the organ? Do you play piano?" His eyes lit up as I escorted him onto the bench. Careful not to change any presets, I gave him some Principals and he delicately lit into "Fur Elise" first phrase only. I then talked to he and Dad about any interest in taking organ lessons and how the church was encouraging young organists to come forward when they're ready. They both seemed interested, so I provided my personal contact info and heartily invited dad to call me ASAP when his son expressed further interest. I also pointed out our ancient Wurlitzer (c.1925) in the gallery and said it is still fairly viable.
So, there's that for positive, yes?

In Noel's defense - those are all things that happen all the time and are problems.
On the other hand - the people on this forum cannot change them, because they are perpetrated by idiots who are not members here and don't read this sort of thing.

Moreover, they are symptoms, not the main problem. The main problem being that many people who work in church leadership (in EVERY denomination, btw) are self-centered, thoughtless people who can't be bothered to think about how any of their actions would impact any body else.

I also know an organist who convinced his PP to get rid of the carpet and everybody was happy!
This was done in a Catholic church too!
Things are going onwards and upwards down here in Aus.

Adam Wood for the win.

Clerget,

These are things we should hear about and discuss solutions to. (In some places there is sadly no solution - outside of a new pastor / bishop).

I simply find it counterproductive to any liturgical progress/renewal if a sacred music forum has frequent topics like this one - discouraging people from working for the church by using the worst examples. If I were at a parish with an unfortunate music situation and came across a thread like this, I would probably just give up. On the other hand, if I stumbled upon something like people posting good Triduum programs or new resources like Pluth's Hymn Tune Introits, I would be inspired to continue fighting the good fight. Even if that meant finding a new parish, or accepting the unfortunate situation wherever I was (I've had to do this several times) and waiting it out until something else was possible.

We're blessed in this diocese to have some great things happening. I plan to post more on my local situation in the near future. I feel for people like yourself where it seems that no progress is possible - I've been in situations like that before. I was once "relieved of my duties" for too much eye-rolling while serving under the most disorganized praise band leader one could imagine.
It happens.

The question I'm posing is:
Is this forum a place for promoting sacred music?
Or, is this forum a place for whining about unfortunate situations?

That's my personal take. YMMV, etc.

this forum a place for promoting sacred music?
Or, is this forum a place for whining about unfortunate situations?

both

one will never overcome error or evil by ignoring it. we must continue to hold up the ideal while exposing the counterfeit... not whining per se, but speaking the truth in love. take every opportunity to improve your situation and bring it gently under the rule of Christ and his Church.

Despite Noel's snarkiness - can you tell I am MUCH easier to get along with than him, LOL - I have never really formally applied for any job I have held. My last two, including the current one, were instances where I played on an interim basis for a few weeks, then was given the jobs. Being there for a time, showing you can get along with the factions in the choir and church, and can do a credible job are excellent ways to get into a position. You don't always have to fill out applications and do interviews. Sometimes seeing and hearing are enough to convince a pastor you are right for a job.

... you'll likely never smell sulfur.

Sulfur, unfortunately, is both endemic and organic. Use lots of incense to cover the smell. ;-)

Removed.

what the congregation thinks and feels will influence the pastor, especially if money is involved

It is sad, but true, that this happens. It should not happen. Period. There is little stopping it from happening, no matter where you go. As a reminder though, one cannot serve Mammon and God at the same time.

I saw on a different forum a while ago, a comment on a post that brings up the following thought:

The liturgy is not celebrated because the people want it to be: it is celebrated because God wants it to be.

Removed.

Dude.

discouraging people from working for the church by using the worst examples

While you complain about what I write, you and others fail to stand up and write of the utter joy they experience weekly and even daily at the church that they serve

Do you even read my posts in other threads?

OK Noel, ...

... and others fail to stand up and write of the utter joy they experience weekly and even daily at the church that they serve, where all is great and happy ...

... I have fulfilled my duty, see my last update in suddenly I got my 'own' choir(s)

... and your pay is so high you feel guilty about cashing the check.

not.

Couple o' reflections...
My erstwhile California colleague, Sam Dorlaque, just finished his tenure in Oakland diocese yesterday. His choristers current and former assembled in the loft and delivered their best ever rendition of Palestrina Regina Caeli. There was much joy in Mudville, save for the current pastor (the successor, one presumes, of Pater Keyes), who didn't see fit to even acknowledge the transition much less appreciate Sam's fine contributions of a decade. There were lovely dinners and a farewell party attesting to Sam and Louise's profound affect on worship at the parish. The affection and respect accorded them by the choral community was affluent, and not mindful of all the ecclesial battles and scars that attended those years. It's the people with whom we serve and service.
Which brings me to this pithiness- a well-worn cliché is "Don't sweat the small stuff, and it's ALL small stuff." In the world of church/industry that might point to a dichotomy. We tend to focus upon what are macro problems in our ecclesiology, and carp about them with all measures of righteous indignation; oh the clericalism, oh the apathy, oh the crass commercialism, oh the egotism, oh the crappy music/buildings/simulacrum (not meant for you, MJO)/oh the humiliation/oh the attack sheep etc.adnauseum.
The macro stuff in this, our Church, is maddening pure and simple.
Question- didn't we know this already? One of the more common pieces of advice we offer folks in dire straights here is "pick up your sandals and vamoose that hell hole." So, we flatter ourselves as prophets unheard and, boo hoo, unappreciated in our own towns.
Well, don't sweat the big stuff, and do appreciate the small stuff, like the one chorister whose life you've changed even tho' he can't match pitch half the time, or the young family with a handicapped kid who smile at you on the way out of church in a way that says "Keep up the good work, great Regina Caeli this morning."
This approach isn't Pollyanna in the slightest, it's blatant reality in Christ-ville: see Thursday, Maundy. Here endeth the sermon.

The parish musician leads about five hours of rehearsals a week with three different choirs and plays the organ for a couple of Sunday Masses plus holy days. He's there 10 or 15 minutes beforehand to set up, so it's about a 10 hour a week job, right? The music plans itself. New music magically finds its way into the choir folders, which in turn empty themselves of the music that's already been sung and file it away. Even the hymn boards numbers change themselves (not that more than a handful of people notice, since they never bother to open the hymnals that cost the parish thousands of dollars; singing is what the choir's there for). Choir members never contact him outside of rehearsal time, neither by phone, e-mail, text message, or Facebook. The organ music practices itself, and the choirmaster simply shows up for rehearsal and does his thing without any special preparation - after all, he's a professional! Any extra time he spends preparing music for the church is a contribution he makes out of the goodness of his heart, much like priests preparing their homilies. He should be grateful he gets paid at all to do something he enjoys.

There's one addressed to a "Dude" under Job Headings posting, but I think it's for another "Dude"? . . .

Madorganist,

this ...

Any extra time he spends preparing music for the church is a contribution he makes out of the goodness of his heart, much like priests preparing their homilies. He should be grateful he gets paid at all to do something he enjoys.

... resembles a bit what pastor said about the salary level:
"It is a win-win situation; we get more (and better!) music for our money, you get more opportunity do develop your choir direction skills".
I am curious whether the latter will turn into higher salary (as promised) once I get my first degree.

Oh, and I get very good coaching by our DM one hr./week (initially two), another argument why I get less $$$ than expected ... now I discovered that DM is expected to do this during his regualar working hours ...

"It is a win-win situation; we get more (and better!) music for our money, you get more opportunity do develop your choir direction skills".

Translation: get that degree, but we're not paying you more for it.

The more I work for the Church (especially OF parishes), the more I realize it's all about the $$$.

Maybe some student in need of a bit of money, who will leave for a 'real' job right after graduation.

I'd like to indicate that this is one of the points of the orignal post: many church jobs are not attractive enough to potential candidates to keep them there for any length of time, and in some cases, to even get them there at all. I think the question was: why is this so? I think that the quotation above says a lot, "...who will leave for a 'real' job right after graduation." The view is that our positions are not "real jobs" and that being a church musician is not a career, or at least it's not a respectable one.