Choir Argument about timing
  • Another choir in my church asked me to play the piano for them for 2 weeks. I did agree, because it would have been rude to say no just because of their style (contemporary).

    The setting is "Mass of a Joyful Heart". I know.
    Anyways, they can't seem to get the timing right, and argue anytime I suggest that we should sing what is written. I have tried many different ways to explain it to them, including doing it in tandem with their main pianist who is also complaining about such issues, but no cigar.

    The issues seem to only be on the Sanctus, where they are coming in a half beat too late and making up all kinds of different rhythms that are far from correct.

    Any help would be greatly appreciated.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    If it is the Sanctus from the Mass of a Joyful Heart I just heard on YouTube, you are attempting to put lipstick on a pig. I wouldn't knock myself out over this one. It's not worth it. It is going to sound like hell with or without you.
  • O Ok. Yeah I think I agree, now that I look at it...

    I can't believe they chose that one instead of one that has an actual ORGAN acc...

    If you are wondering about the setting, it is "Mass of the Holy Family" by John Dawson, it might be a bit hard to find on Youtube.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    I don't know if it's the case with this particular Mass, but often in contemporary music the score is just a transcription of the more improvisatory and free style that the songwriter sings. This frequently results in difficult-to-read syncopation, or the impossible-to-perform sixteenth notes in "Be Not Afraid." If it's part of the style, so be it. That would be like a pianist insisting on playing even eights when playing the boogie-woogie (or a harpsichordist when playing the "notes inégales" of the French baroque).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    If the recording is right (or, at least, the way you want them to sing it) have them listen to the recording.

    Also, make sure they know when to breathe. Also, make sure you are preparing the entrance well with your accompaniment and conducting.
  • incantuincantu
    Posts: 989
    Oh... and while I wouldn't be too picky about how the choir performs that Mass, I would be particular with the word "timing." Unless you're performing some modern work that requires using a stopwatch for 20 seconds of this, and then 5 seconds of that, we should be speaking of "rhythm," which has to do the the proportional relationships between notes, and not of an absolute duration. A lot of newbie choir singers (especially those with a dance background) try to memorize the "timing" of a note in rehearsal, and then are confused in performance when the piece is done in a faster or slower tempo. Having an understanding of the difference between beat and rhythm, rhythm and tempo, etc. is essential for performing choral music.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Of course, the 16th notes of BNA are hardly impossible; indeed, they are quite possible, if you don't rush to consonentssssss. Even darkly fun.
  • @Adam Wood They don't really understand a conductor, and it is piano with a brutally hard acc, so I don't know how I could possibly conduct them. Also I have been told not to...

    Thanks for the tips.

    I find that they can be a bit over-reliant on the CD, and the CD doesn't necessarily show them how I want them to sing it (and the other pianist).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    it is piano with a brutally hard acc, so I don't know how I could possibly conduct them


    with your head and face
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • I had to do some folksy stuff once, a long time ago. I don't know by what experience I knew this, but I knew that the, shall we say, 'period (and genre) correct' way of performing these pieces was, as incantu so well illustrates, not exactly 'as written', but incorpoarated considerable liberties with rhythm and timing. Not really being able to do the music this way with 'personal authenticity', I straightened out the rhythm and interpreted it with the same phrasing and attention to time that I would use in a motet by Byrd or Poulenc, made some adjustments to the accompaniment and played in on the organ. Having done this 'to it' was, to my mind, a very great improvement. And, the choir were very pleased and said 'this is nice! we didn't know it could sound like this! you took the "country" out of it'. Needless to say, I was pleased with myself.
    Thanked by 1Casavant Organist
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    1. Ask them how they are accustomed to singing it.
    2. Adjust.
  • I don't know if it's the case with this particular Mass, but often in contemporary music the score is just a transcription of the more improvisatory and free style that the songwriter sings.


    This is true with various traditional music genres as well: the dots are simply an approximation, and the actual rhythm needs to be appreciated by "catching" the music from another musician, not blindly reading it from the page.

    And I've also had a classically trained national orchestra member say the same to me about all music: the score is just a guide, a musician must bring both skill and knowledge of the genre to playing it - otherwise it just sounds wooden, like a MIDI file.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    When I was an elementary school music teacher, I was at a folk drumming workshop once and the instructor had us play some rhythm.

    Music Teacher: So, is that a triplet or, like, two dotted quarters and a quarter?
    Instructor: Yeah.
    Music Teacher: ::confused look::
    Instructor: Right on.