Spoken Psalms and Mass Setting
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    My priest thinks it attracts more people to church if you have the Mass Setting and psalm spoken, and the Gloria omitted. He thinks you should try to make mass as short as possible. Are these even allowed?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    How much is he lopping off his sermon to shorten the mass?
    Thanked by 8canadash M. Jackson Osborn Ben CHGiffen StimsonInRehab eft94530 Blaise Elmar
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    Omitting the Gloria on a feast or solemnity (unless it's a Sunday of Lent or Advent) is most definitely NOT allowed.

    Speaking the psalm is allowed. It is also lame. If you don't sing an elaborate, song-type, paraphrased psalm, it probably saves you under a minute to speak it rather than chant it.

    Is he also proposing speaking the Sanctus, Memorial Acclamation, and Agnus Dei? If so, this is double lame. He's treating the music as simply an add-on, rather than the integral part of the rite that it is. He may be right that having Mass as short as possible attracts more people; this may be true in his experience; he may have lost parishioners in the past who were grumpy about the length of Mass. That being said, this liturgically minimalist / lowest common denominator approach to the celebration of Holy Mass is part of the long-term problem, not the long-term solution.
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  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I hear there is a megachurch down the road if he's looking for somewhere where it doesn't matter what you do as long as warm bodies are in the building.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW eft94530 Joseph Mendes
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    Our Masses were packed. The priest, people in the pews and the choir sang everything (or at least as much as they could). You should send your priest over to visit us, or have our associate over for dinner along with your priest so you can discuss the realities of his ideas.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Maybe the local bishop wants the church closed, and this is the pastor's strategy to squash the faith and empty the pews.
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  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    O this is a giant church with a large but dropping congregation. It is the main church in the area and the other Catholic Church is quite small in comparaison. Yup, we always omit the Sanctus/Memorial Acc/Agnus Dei every year. Horrible.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Are you talking Sunday Mass here, or daily (ferial) Mass?

    The Gloria is not taken at ordinary daily Mass, sung or said. It must be taken on Solemnities and Sundays, no choice. This is pretty fundamental. If the celebrant isn't doing this, call the Chancery Office, basically.

    The Gloria is taken all through this week, of course, because it's Easter!

    Musically, everything can be said, not sung, but, srsly? Surely Father at least lets you sing hymns or whatever on Sundays?? Granted, at weekday masses many places do not sing at all, often to allow people to attend a short Mass during a busy day.

    (The Gospel Acclamation probably shouldn't be spoken, only sung, and be ommitted entirely in spoken-only daily Masses. However, the rubric isn't crystal clear on that.)

    The Bishop of ------- definitely doesn't want that church closed.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Don't forget: if the gospel acclamation is omitted, it must not be sung.

    < / purplebold >
    Thanked by 2Casavant Organist Joseph Mendes
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    This is the kind of priest for whom the term four-hymn sandwich was invented - the kind of priest who treated the Ordo as wallpaper that should be done with dispatch, and 3-4 hymns to provide efficient, brief variety. (In the original context, it had little or nothing to do with propers vs hymns.) The mental habit of treating the Ordo as wallpaper often continues even if it is sung.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    A lot of priests add unnecessary talk before the Sign of the Cross, before the Kyrie, the Gloria, the readings, before the Creed, before the Our Father, the Peace, the Postcommunion, and the final blessing. They could save several minutes in each Mass by dropping all that boring gab: uninstructive, unorganized, and uninspiring.

    we always omit the Sanctus/Memorial Acc/Agnus Dei every year.


    Can you clarify: do you mean every week? or once a year? If a priest were leaving out these or the Gloria consistently, it's a major mistake. I'd send a note to the bishop to ask if that were permitted.

    Incidentally, it is possible that the priest is being cheap and looking for an excuse to cut the paid musicians.
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Don't forget: if the gospel acclamation is omitted, it must not be sung.
    The contrapositive of which is:

    Remember: If the gospel acclamation is sung, it cannot be omitted.

    Thanked by 4CharlesW Casavant Organist Ben Joseph Mendes
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 986
    Well, looking at it from the perspective of Musicam Sacram, if you aren't already singing the dialogues, you shouldn't be singing the Ordinary Chants...
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  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Noeisdas,

    After reading this I thought I recalled you posting other negative things about your current post/position/parish. I decided to use the feature that allows us to browse people's previous posts to check to make sure it was you... what I found in my brief perusal was... a lot of issues you seem to be having with your current place. Perhaps it is time to look for a new parish?


    I recently had a choir director go at another one and it was really bad. The guy being targeted was so hurt and I don't know if I even want to remain in the music ministry at this church.

    I am really mad at the music ministry of my church for choosing the Glory and Praise 3rd edition hymnal. My director and I are so mad because we couldn't get almost any new hymns from the current Glory and Praise 2nd in our pews right now. There have been many fights in the ministry and I wish I wasn't a part of a ministry with 4 groups, 3 of the 4 contemporary. I just can't stand it.

    Bach St John Passion in place of reading - is this even permitted?

    My priest thinks it attracts more people to church if you have the Mass Setting and psalm spoken, and the Gloria omitted. He thinks you should try to make mass as short as possible. Are these even allowed?

    O this is a giant church with a large but dropping congregation. It is the main church in the area and the other Catholic Church is quite small in comparaison. Yup, we always omit the Sanctus/Memorial Acc/Agnus Dei every year. Horrible.

    My director used to bring things down -6 for some pieces, that was so horrible. But even worse, there is a choir in my church who transposes literally everything -4 or -5. I can't sing with them and its all because there is one singer who wants to do some harmony so they need it down so far... I can only sing so low as a tenor...

    OF. We are not really that big of a traditional church. We spend way too much time on contemporary music and "modernizing" the mass.

    My organist likes it a bit too much, using it for every single special mass (confirmation, easter vigil, first communion, wedding, you name it!) I die from it...

    How about when another choir in my church chooses an entirely different psalm for the Sunday just because the proper one is too hard? Ridiculous, and I don't know how the heck they actually get away with it.

    In our church, one of the directors for another choir was pushy and can't even read music. It is important to have adequate experience to run a church choir, and with proper style music. Also, I like Noel's statement "sustained sound over percussion sound". It works well when we have organ sound and we had more attendance when we started because we used organ.
    Thanked by 2Casavant Organist canadash
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    Yes, maybe I will. I am certainly not very happy with where I am and I do know of another church in my area where I could look at...

    @chonak Let me clarify myself here a bit. We do not sing the sanctus/memorial acc/amen. They are just spoken, I don't know why I said that. Must've been tired. On the other hand, the Gloria is omitted completely in the summer. I know. Seriously.

    Sorry if I sound tired, combatting jet lag is not fun...
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    Also, during the summer means all 8-9weeks in the Canadian summer holidays. Sorry I didn't clarify that earlier and yes these are Sunday masses.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Chess clocks have more than one use.
    Thanked by 2Liam Casavant Organist
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    My priest thinks it attracts more people to church if you have the Mass Setting and psalm spoken, and the Gloria omitted. He thinks you should try to make mass as short as possible. Are these even allowed?


    This is outrageous.

    This is for people who have no interest in attending divine worship, or to be fair, occasionally those who have legitimate reasons why they need to leave quickly (in a hurry to watch your favorite sports team besides).

    His solution will most certainly not attract me to his church.

    In the Ruthenian Byzantine tradition, we have a liturgical book which states plainly which parts are to be sung (hint: the vast majority of it) because the parts are already set to music, and everyone knows almost exactly what to expect when they come in the door.
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    I don't think I should find a new parish. As I reflect on my experiences, the one thing I see is acceptance. I am accepted where I am, whether I like it or not. I don't want to lose a reputation and then work crazy hard to get a new one elsewhere while I already have a lot on my hands. I would change a lot of things if I could but serenity is really important in my view so I am just going to have to learn to accept that of which I cannot change.
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