Isaac's Choralis Constantinus
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    I just have a question about this.

    I know that Choralis Constantinus I is fully available on Imslp, and many transcriptions (including some of my own) are available on cpdl.

    Are the other two books (II & III) of this collection in public domain, or is only the first?

    I own a copy of Choralis Constantinus II, and am working on transcribing the Easter propers (hopefully for our schola to use). Would I be allowed to post the finished product to cpdl, or would I have to collect all the copies that we use and hide them away somewhere?
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,237
    Copyright law depends on where you live: Vol. II was edited by Anton Webern and his ficta, of interest in their own right, are or rather were under copyright in the EU until 1945+70 years. Both IMSLP and CPDL (currently not up to snuff) have pages on copyright. Stanford go into more depth.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    Is it the Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Österreich, Band II (Volume II) that you have? It's publication date was 1909 (and Anton Webern died in 1945), so there is no problem in transcribing from it land publishing the results to CPDL.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Yes, that is the one that I have.

    So does that mean that people could be scanning II & III into imslp if they so desired? (not that I have the least desire to, but I'd love to see III on there)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    OMI (Old Manuscripts & Incunabula) has facsimile scans of the original partbooks (look down the page for Isaac), $220 for all three volumes, $95 for Vol. 1, $75 each for Vols. 2 & 3.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    But if they're in public domain then whoever owns them could put a pdf version online without repercussion?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    The problem with Book III seems to be that the only full score transcription that seems to be available is that transcribed/edited by Louise Cuyler (1908-1998) for her 1947 PhD dissertation and subsequently published by U Mich press in 1950. This calls into question the copyright status of her publication.

    It's also not clear just how much "editing" was done by Anton Webern in his edition of Book II.

    In both cases, however, there is no problem in preparing full score editions from the (scanned) original part books.
  • joerg
    Posts: 57
    In the EU scholarly editions of works in the public domain are protected for 25 years.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Ok. Well, I have just transcribed the Gradual + Alleluia, as well as the Communio. They should be on CPDL momentarily, for anyone who might want to use them for this Easter.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    I've considered transcribing the Introit, but do any of you know whether or not it could be used as the introit at Mass? I'm sort of assuming not.
    The correct words are present in at least 1 voice at a time, while the other voices are singing different text (more easily heard) up until the verse, at which point everyone sings the correct text.

    Introit:
    RESURREXI, et adhuc tecum sum, allelúia:
    posuísti super me manum tuam, allelúia:
    mirábilis facta est sciéntia tua, allelúia, allelúia.
    2. Dómine, probásti me, et cognovísti me:
    tu cognovísti sessiónem meam et resurrectiónem meam.

    Accompanying Text:
    Christus surrexit.
    Mala nostra texit
    et quos hic dilexit
    hos ad coelos vexit

    Though it's lovely, I'm not sure it's worth the work because there's never time for the Gregorian introit + a motet based on the introit.

    It seems more like something for an Easter-tide concert than for a Mass?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    We sing these... Have yet to do one of the Introits but I see no problem even if the text is an older variant of the modern text in the Graduale Romanum. We sing at an EF Mass.

    I believe it is legitimate to sing a polyphonic Proper instead of the Chant Proper as long as the text is the same.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Right. I've transcribed a few of these, and we've done the polyphonic introits. Usually they only contain the "proper" text, though, and not other stuff.
  • CGM
    Posts: 345
    All three vols. are online, via the Eastman Sibley Library website:

    vols. 1 & 2
    - vol. 1 is labeled "score - V"
    - vol. 2 is marked "score - XVI part I"
    vol. 3
    - Cuyler's dissertation, as noted above, broken into three parts (v1 is the text of the dissertation, and v2 & v3 are the transcriptions)

    We did the Isaac as the Introit for Easter Sunday for several years at OF Mass, from an edition that I prepared (in case you want to take a look without having to do your own transcription).

    If you have the time during Mass (that is, a lengthy procession and/or incensation), I think it's a stunning way to open the Easter Day liturgy. You could justify the variant text under the "option 4" rubric, if necessary - or under Benedict's statement that "What earlier generations held as sacred, remains sacred and great for us too."
  • CGM
    Posts: 345
    For anyone who would prefer to work from the original partbooks, they are online as well, via the Bavarian State Library:

    - vol. 1
    - vol. 2
    - vol. 3
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    For anyone interested, I just put Isaac's "Asperges Me" on CPDL, as well.

    http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Asperges_me_(Heinrich_Isaac)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JonLaird
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 162
    Generally speaking, the Introit may indeed be polyphonic. It would be another question whether it is the best idea to have a polyphonic introit, but personally I highly encourage you, if you continue to have the time and resources, to continue transcribing these works. This collection has a particular privileged place in the history of sacred music, not only because it is such a vast collection of polyphonic propers by a single composer, but also on account of its many sequences. It can only be good to have them more widely accessible.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    I'm completely enamored with Heinrich Isaac. I'm going to transcribe as much of his work as I can.
    I was very surprised by the Asperges, because even though all of these propers are based on chant in one way or another, the obvious use of chant as parts of this polyphony was astounding. I love it, and I think that it would even be beautiful as an offertory motet for those whose main focus may be the OF.
    Thanked by 3MariaRist tomjaw Heath
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    @JonLaird, etc., I've often considered transcribing some of his sequences. Goodness knows there are so many. Would people actually use them, though?

    There can't be anything wrong with singing them somewhere in the Mass, but I feel that they would/could simply get left at the wayside if people are having to choose something to cut for the sake of perfecting "actual" parts of the Mass that they are preparing.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Help Please!

    Alright. So, I'm considering starting on one of Isaac's sequences, but I do have a question about notating it, as I forgot that his sequences typically only contain half of the actual text (starting on the second verse, rather than the first).

    The first time I looked/sang through one of his sequences I had an a-ha! moment and said, "THAT's why he always had us do recto-tono every other verse during those Requiem Masses." Of course, the Dies Irae is beautiful, and I prefer its full chant.

    I know that in many sequences there are 2 verses per melodic idea in the chant (obviously not the case in the Victimae Paschali Laudes), but these Isaac scores don't even notate the text for the verses they're skipping, they simply have double-bars at the end of each verse.

    Is there a performance practice of recto-tono chant between verses of a Sequence?
    Would that be an appropriate way of notating a polyphonic sequence? I'm not especially interested in setting all of the missing text myself (does that make me a purist or lazy?), so would it work (for those of you who might even ever consider doing one of his sequences) to simply put the appropriate line of text between a double-bar and the next musical phrase?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    ----For example: Here is Isaac's part of the All Saints Sequence:----

    2. Principatus potestatus, virtutes.
    Principalities, Powers, Virtues

    4. Ordines noveni spirituum beaturum.
    Ye nine choirs of blessed spirits

    6. Nos fragiles homines firmate praecibus.
    Make us frail mortals as stable, by your prayers.

    8. Nunc et in aevum vestris simus digni solemniis interesse sacris.
    We may be worthy to take part, both now and forever, in your sacred solemnities

    10. Et angelis socios fecit esse polo.
    And associated with the Angels in heaven

    12. Et viduarum sanctarum omniumque placenium populo supremo Domino.
    Assembly of holy widows, and of all who have been pleasing to the sovereign Lord

    13a2. Nunc et perenniter.
    Now and forever

    ----He is leaving out the following:----
    1. Omnes sancti Seraphim, Cerumbim, Throni quoque Dominationesque,
    All ye holy Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones also and Dominations,

    3. Archangeli, Angeli, vos decet laus et honores.
    Archangels, Angels, to you beseemeth praise and honour.

    5. Quos in Dei laudibus firmavit caritas,
    Whom charity has stablished in God's praises

    7. Ut spiritales pravitates vestro juvamine vincentes fortiter,
    So that by your assistance, resolutely overcoming the spirits of wickedness,

    9. Vos quos Dei gratia vincere terrea,
    Ye whom the grace of God enabled to conquer the things of earth,

    11. Vos patriarchae, prophetae, apostoli, confessores, martyres, monachi, virgines, Ye patriarches, prophets, apostles, confessors, martyrs, monks, virgins,

    13a1. Nos adjutorium nunc et perenniter foveat, protegat, ut vestrum May your assistance now and ever cherish and protect us,

    14. In die poscimus gaudiorum vestrorum. Amen.
    As we pray on this day of your joys. Amen.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 2,006
    If you are doing a scholarly edition, I'd just give the polyphony with the chant/text of the full sequence as an appendix. If you are creating a practical performing edition, try to include the missing verses in their appropriate parts of the main score. I would say, if you have the chant for this sequence, check and see if the chant and the polyphony are in the same mode; if they are then include the chant. If not, suggest an appropriate reciting tone and give the missing text.
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Thanks, @Salieri. I have a feeling I'll probably do the last option you posted, as that's the only practical solution I had come up with that didn't actually change anything from the pages in front of me.

    I can't find anything referencing a hymn tune or even mode of chant that this may have been set to. If I spoke German, perhaps I'd have some sort of luck, since it was apparently a tradition to sing it on All Saints in Germany.
    Of course, that might help me read all the extra information in the Choralis Constantinus books to see if it is more descriptive of what's going on. I can pick out words, but can't just read it.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    Yes, traditionally in alternatim settings of things like the Magnificat or sequences and other office hymns, one uses the Gregorian chant for the non-harmonized verses. See my edition of the Palestrina "A solus ortis cardine" for an example ... or any of several settings of hymns and Magnificats by Victoria and others.
    -
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,112
    I would just include the chant as notated.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    I do appreciate the feedback.

    That being said, the main point is that the majority of his sequences aren't sequences that are in (constant/current) use by the Church, and it's often difficult to find any sort of chant setting for them - gregorian or no.

    So, for those of you who think you would even possibly use something likes these: should I, then, choose an appropriate modal psalm tone that leads well into the next polyphonic verse, or simply insert a recto-tono setting?
  • If the choices are 1) recto tono, and 2) psalm tone, I would prefer psalm tone, FWIW
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    We had a chat about this at choir practice last night, we would also agree that the missing verses would be sung to their chant settings as found in the graduale. We would also be interested in singing these sequences.
    Our director is delighted that more of these Isaac Propers are being set and posted on CPDL. He usually has to set the ones we sing himself on an ancient computer running very poor music software.

    I also think that it would be good to have the chant for the missing verses added (In chant notation) If you need chant notation for any of the sequences I have a few books that have large numbers of sequences.

    Will look for the All Saints sequence later.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,237
    A contemporary printed source for Sequences is the Passau Gradual (facs. in Das Erbe Deutsche Musik) which is missing only a couple of the chants used by Isaac (these can be found by digging online). But Dr. Mahrt has argued that organ was the norm for alternatim. A few settings by the Constance organist Hans Buchner are usable with the CC. I'd certainly want the sequence melodies included in an edition.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    All Saints Sequence, Omnes Sancti... Can be found in "Cantus Varii in usu apud Nostrates" pg 309 (google books). This book contains a large number of sequences, although for the Adam of St. Victor Sequences there is a better book with all of his works available on the internet archive.

    Anyway to save time here is the pages with the Sequence. see below,

    I note that there are variations in the text, but this is common with older manuscripts everyone seems to have their own version. Anyway I hope that this is the right melody for Issac, as some of these sequences have more than one melody.

    N.B. I have not looked for other versions of this sequence, but could do a proper search if needed.
    Thanked by 2CCooze CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    tomjaw

    This is indeed the version of the sequence "Omnes Sancti..." on which Isaac's polyphonic setting is based (one can see the melody, usually with some ornamentation, in the parts). It is also the melody that is used in the Johannes Roullet setting available at CPDL (which sets the odd numbered verses, in contradistinction with the even verses setting by Isaac).
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Goodness. Y'all are apparently much better at digging than I, because I spent a ridiculous amount of time trying to find this and only found books with text - no chant. Thanks for that.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Ok. So, here goes. This is my attempt at setting Isaac's Omnes Sancti sequence for All Saints. Feel free to let me know what should be done differently with future sequence transcriptions, and thank you all for your help.

    http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/index.php/Sequence:_Omnes_Sancti_Seraphim_(Heinrich_Isaac)


    http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/images/b/bb/Omnes_Sancti_Seraphim.pdf


    http://www.cpdl.org/wiki/images/3/32/Omnes_Sancti_Seraphim.mp3.mp3

    There's definitely no question about his genius in composition, as even before I put the text in and was just listening for transcription mistakes I was moved nearly to tears at various parts of this sequence. (sometimes tears just happen, though, because I'm in my 3rd Trimester =P)
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    @CHGiffen Thanks, I did not have time to check as I needed to dash off to work. I have found it difficult to find things in the Choralis Constantinus.

    @CCooze
    Thanks, our choir has looked through the transcription and we think it is great, we hope to sing this on the Sunday within the Octave of All Saints.

    We look forward to more of these... A request list would include the complete Propers for the 24th and Last Sunday after Pentecost (these could potentially be sung on 5 Sundays this year. The Comm. Amen Dico Vobis is lovely. Our choir Director would love to have the Tract for the 1st Sunday of Lent, not that we will be able to sing it this year!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    After looking at that tract, @tomjaw, I can see exactly why someone would love to have it. It looks to be quite the (lovely) beast.
    23 Pentecost makes a lot of sense to be one of my next projects since it can be used quite a lot. -- Do y'all already have the Amen Dico Vobis?

    Please do make a recording of your All Saints sequence, when the time comes. If we don't get to do it I would love to get to hear someone else!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    Yep, what CCooze said!
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    23-Last Pentecost are on CPDL.
    We'll see if I can get to that 1 Lent Sequence in the near future.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen tomjaw
  • cberry
    Posts: 19
    CCooze: thank you very much for these transcriptions! They will be very useful. I'd vote for any Communions you'd like to set!
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Is there a known index somewhere for the Cantus Varii in usu apud Nostrates?
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Also, does anyone else find it amazing that Isaac managed to write no less than 8 different "Gaudeamus omnes..." introits? Good grief, what a trooper!
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    @CCooze
    Yes, thank you so much for these, we have sung the Comm. Amen dico... for a few years, and for the last couple of years the All. De profundis... It will be great to have some nice easy to read editions to sing with.

    Is there a known index somewhere for the Cantus Varii in usu apud Nostrates?

    Yes, at the end of that part of the book, anyway I will attach the alphabetical index here (see below) This book has one of the best selections of former Sequences. I presume that you have managed to download the book from google, I had to use TOR to get mine.

    8 different "Gaudeamus omnes..."
    I presume that these will include the propers for All Saints, BVM Mount Carmel and Assumption, St. Thomas of Canterbury, St Mary Magdalen, St. Benedict etc. The text of this Introit was used with minor variations for quite a few Feasts!

    Also if you are looking for a particular chant you are welcome to PM me I have quite a collection.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CCooze
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Mostly for Marian introits: visitation, purification, Annunciation, etc. - but the main point I was making is that they are all different.
    Some may have a snippet of what looks to be the same musical line from another, but no piece is actually the same. I could easily see someone thinking that one was quite good enough and to just changing the text, here and there.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    I'm going to attempt to have all of the Lenten Communion works on CPDL by the end of this week (today I put up Hoc Corpus).

    I am looking to get the entirety of his propers for Laetare- and Palm Sunday on here in the near future so that people who are interested in them can have ample time to learn the Tracts by those Sundays. But I came across another anomaly that I remember seeing before - that the introits for (at least) Passion and Palm Sundays end in the middle of the last phrase of the verse, without enough space to just rework the wording at the end, and also without a decent segue into the last 2-3 words to simply be the Gregorian.

    Suggestions appreciated (hopefully not that I should just completely reset the text starting after the verse incipit, which seems to be the only option I can think of that wouldn't make things awkward to the congregant/listener)!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 3,460
    I'm going to attempt to have all of the Lenten Communion works on CPDL by the end of this week
    You're nothing short of amazing!! Thanks for doing this.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    Yes, many thanks for this.

    I have passed on your question to our director of Music...

    I brought along your settings of the last Sunday after Pentecost to our choir practice. He was soon busy playing the Introit and then sat down with a pencil to set the Gloria Patri, he suggests that the setting of the G.P. for the Asperges at the beginning of the book is a clue as to how to set the G.P. for all the Introits.

    Another question when we have sung the Alleluia we have intoned it as normal and then the full choir sing the Isaac as written, was it deliberate that you did not set the Intonation of the Alleluia?

    N.B. When I get time I will post his setting of the G.P. to this thread.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,237
    and also without a decent segue

    In Judica Isaac's verse is "et adduxerunt in montem tuum [, et in tabernacula tua.]"

    in Domine ne longe it's "Quaere me dereliquisti? [longe a salute mea verba delictorum meorum.]"


    My sense of decency might be stretchier than thine: if I worked under an understanding that the verses could not be altered I'd just recto toni "et in tabernacula" and the other has enough text to repeat the psalmtone.

    The Liber usualis gives one verse of the psalm, but if it's understood that more can be added to cover the procession isn't that just an example of how to point? The alleged 'rule breaking' then becomes a question of how the psalm may be divided into verses for the purpose of the entrance.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    was it deliberate that you did not set the Intonation of the Alleluia?


    Yes.
    The way I look at it (which may be different than anyone/everyone else, I suppose) is this:

    The rubrics usually state that if the Alleluia is intoned by just a certain number of cantors, they would sing to the asterisk, at which point all would repeat from the beginning, and then complete the Alleluia with the jubilus.
    If it is to be the whole group that sings the Alleluia, they just sing through it as written, ignoring the asterisk.

    So, when I see Isaac's music, it seems to me that it is a version of the latter. You get 1 full-text Alleluia before beginning the verse, and then after the verse you repeat the beginning "Alleluia" - just as you would in the chant.

    I suppose you could sing the Gregorian Alleluia first, but at that point (in my mind) you're adding an Alleluia, which seems liturgically incorrect (again; to me).

    ---

    ...to set the Gloria Patri


    I've thought about that being an option, too - just moving it to a correlating key.

    Personally, I like that the way he writes his music works very well for you to go into a Gregorian/psalm-tone Gloria Patri, which then fits right back into the original incipit. I think it's lovely, and clever, and so I have no problem just chanting the G.P., which is readily recognizable to both congregants and the priest (all of whom may be interested in how long it is until the Gloria =P).

    So, what I've decided is that for future introits, I'll give the incipit tone and the EUOUAE for the Gloria Patri (as in the Dicit Dominus). Whether or not to use it will be up to individual choirs.
    (Hopefully I'll find time to go back and do the same for previously-uploaded versions, but when we reformatted our hard drive I lost all of my Finale files and I will have to input them all over again - which is unfortunate, because I did see the issue in the verse's incipit in Respice, Domine.)
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • I rejoice to see the Forum playing its best intended role here, enabling a fruitful and productive exchange about a topic in sacred music. Thanks.
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    Alright, I don't know if I'll get around to the other tracts/alleluias, but Isaac's Communion antiphons for Ash Wednesday and the 6 Sundays of Lent, plus all the Easter Propers are now on CPDL.

    It'd be wonderful to hear recordings of any/all of these, if someone has the time to hit record whenever they are sung.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 448
    I want to make sure you all know that I do very much appreciate all of your (pl) questions, suggestions, and feedback!
    It definitely helps my thought process as I transcribe this wonderful music.

    I'm still thinking about the introits, but am taking a short break from this for now. I do like the input on the recto tono and psalm tone continuations.
    I don't like to rework text, but if it's a small enough change then I don't have a problem with it.

    At some point I'll look more thoroughly into all the confused verses in the post-Pentecost propers to see if it was actually confusion on the part of those compiling the works, and so perhaps the verses could just be cut/pasted (fingers crossed), rather than setting them to their corresponding psalm-tones (because putting new text to music written *for* another specific text isn't something I want to do - and does go beyond my sense of decency).
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 870
    This is really excellent work, thank you so much.

    We are looking at using the 3rd Sunday of Lent and the Passion Sunday Communion, hopefully we will have recordings.

    Our Director has not got around to looking at the Introits.

    As for post Pentecost I presume that the Issac Propers will follow the older arrangement rather than that found in the G.R. 1961.