Inculturation
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    http://www.romereports.com/2015/11/28/uganda-a-spectacular-rendition-of-ecce-panis-angelorum
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen JulieColl eft94530
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Ausserordentlich gut!!
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    wow... with the drums as props
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    They sing with such style and gusto! I love it.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    This shouldn't, actually, be called 'inculturation'. This is who they are, and they are being their authentic selves. What inculturationists usually have in mind is the jettisoning of our culture and putting other culture's stuff (or our own culture's rubish) in its place - and calling it 'inculturation'.
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    i·ro·ny
    ˈīrənē/
    noun
    the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    The emphatic effect here being that sometimes white suburbanites try weird approximations of things in the name of inculturation... like trying something they believe to be "African" music, completely foreign to both their own heritage and to the liturgy.

    Meanwhile in Africa, they sing Ecce Panis Angelorum;
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Meanwhile in Africa....

    I'll add the irony that these Africans are amongst those to whom I alluded above who abandon their own culture and replace it with someone else's, or a debased genre of their own. These Africans are not singing African music. They are singing a very bad imitation of western-European-American music. This puts them in the same boat as those in the US whose Good Friday is not complete without 'Were you there'. whilst they would have no idea what the reproaches were. At least we know that cultural suicide is not limited to those of European heritage.
    Thanked by 1PaxMelodious
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Would you still compare them to the misguided American inventions of liturgy if they were instead singing Russian Orthodox music for a liturgy celebrated by a visiting patriarch?

    It's not about regional genres. It's about the music that goes with the particular ritual.

    Africa has a much better argument for inculturation than the US, but they sing (in this video, anyway) their best attempt at music that suits the Roman Rite.

    The unstated question behind the original post was, "If they can do it, why can't (or won't) we?"
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Potent points.
    Maybe tomorrow I'll try to do them some justice.
    You are, of course, spot on.
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 426
    Meanwhile in Africa, they sing Ecce Panis Angelorum;


    Having looked at a few African hymnals, I can assure you that they sing all sorts of stuff in that enormous continent. Some of it dross that even I wouldn't touch any more. Some of it old Protestant hymns that should never have gotten into a Catholic hymnal (but they did).

    Some of it traditional Latin hymns too. But the organ in that video makes me think of a fairground, not a loving God. Cultural imposition failure of the highest order.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    The difference is
    Africans trying to be Catholic
    vs
    North Americans trying to be African.
    Thanked by 3chonak rich_enough JulieColl
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    The difference is
    Africans trying to be being Catholic
    vs
    North Americans trying to be African.

    Fixed.
    Thanked by 9ryand Adam Wood eft94530 chonak kenstb JulieColl JL MarkThompson Liam
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 393
    I enjoyed this. We are a 'catholic' church, so we embrace a wide range of cultures/styles and this group were doing just that, with tremendous enthusiasm.

    Our diocesan choir sings this motet, though with less gusto. (Having listened to this it might be worth trying it with a bit more verve). We also have an African choir in the diocese, who sing at the cathedral once a month and other parishes in between. I don't think they sing this particular piece, but such is their commitment that they meet three times a week, and they sing a very wide range of material which includes, yes, old protestant hymns, but also traditional hymns in various African languages, plus new material composed by their choir director. They also sing choruses from the Messiah (And the Glory... for Advent) and they sing plainchant. All with huge enthusiasm. This is in the north of Scotland, and they are very popular with the PIPs wherever they go.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Let's not forget that Africa is a continent, not a country. It is useful to note that these singers were from Uganda. I think CHGiffen and MJO have it right. This isn't inculturation. It is catholics from Uganda, singing music that catholics everywhere ought to know, but probably don't.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen JL
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Also one of the problems with discussions about inculturation is the tendency to treat culture as a static thing, when it is not.
    What is Irish culture?
    Bits of celt(if there actually were such) bits of viking, bits of norman, english, lots of latin, more recently lots of american....you can't fix your idea of culture at one point and say that is it. In a certain sense we did that with Irish trad music, and dancing, and it was dying a slow death. the riverdance phenomenon (like it or loathe it) opened Irish trad culture up to other influences, resulting in a huge upsurge in interest among the young, both in the newer fusion stuff and in the older 'traditions'. Ditto the use of the Irish language - barely preserved in gaeltachts, specially funded Irish speaking areas, Now these have played an enormously importnt role, but the real growth is coming fro the growing numer of Irish only speaking schools, where the kids happily take Irish and mix it up with contemporary english slang, and modern usage. You can call it decadence if you like, and it may be, but it is not static.
    What may have been an authentic inculturation in the seventies is not so today.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Adam Wood kenstb
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Bits of celt(if there actually were such)

    Yes, I'm quite surprised at the fierce contention about that in academia.
    As a new world Scots, I've decided my blood line stems from the Picts, arggh.
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 756
    Picts = pixies.
    How tall are you?
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