Theology in a Song
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    This is for a musical the children are putting on for Advent. There is a song in it that has the following line: "...the child asleep in the hay will someday be a king." Since technically, Christ was born a king, is it not problematic that the song states "will be" instead of "is born a king?" The musical is supposed to be a cutesy-typed nativity play.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    If the time-frame of the (action in the) nativity play is the Nativity, then I don't see any problem with it.
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    I don't like it. It feels a bit too close to: "As He was born he was just like you and me (granted, true in an important sense) and so, we too can become kings."

    Seems like it could be easily altered, as in:

    "the child asleep in the hay, born a king, will someday be known to all"

    or some such thing. (I don't like my version either, but not for theological reasons.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    The line is really not wrong: the characters singing it simply do not know that the "someday" has already happened.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I don't like it, for CK's reasons.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    Fussy, fussy. But to it right, is the play being acted before Epiphany?
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    I would suggest something like, but better than (help, Kathy!) 'the child asleep in the hay of all the world is king'. He is definitely a king - before, during, when, and at all times after being born. That needs to be explicit - especially to children!

    I am reminded of that wonderful poem by Robert Southwell, which begins 'the bird that built the nest is hatched therein'. There was never a time, past present, or future, when he wasn't creator and king. With him there is no 'will be'.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Today is born our savior (we think? Maybe? TUNE IN NEXT WEEK TO FIND OUT)

    It's a bad text.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    This error was spotted by a third grader, by the way.
    Thanked by 5Kathy CHGiffen Adam Wood M. Jackson Osborn eft94530
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    Smart third grader! I agree. It's a bad line. For some reason, I was reading St. Matthew's Gospel and was right at this part:

    When Jesus therefore was born in Bethlehem of Juda, in the days of king Herod, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem. Saying, Where is he that is born king of the Jews? For we have seen his star in the east, and are come to adore him. Matt. 2:1-2
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    This error was spotted by a third grader, by the way.


    Ex ore infantibus, eh?
    Thanked by 6ClergetKubisz M. Jackson Osborn Kathy Vilyanor eft94530 Scott_W
  • VilyanorVilyanor
    Posts: 388
    Jesus' baptism at the Jordan parallels the anointing of davidic kings, who were called sons by God, so I think there's some precedent in that though He is eternally King, his Kingship in the Incarnation is revealed or manifested at Epiphany and the Baptism.

    That being said, the more pertinent aspect of the mystery is that the powerless child—swaddled so it can't even move—is the Infinity of power and Eternal King of the Universe.
    Thanked by 2Paul F. Ford CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    Vilyanor's pellucid comments have me calling to mind more of that wonderful poem on the incarnation by Robert Southwell. It is moderately lengthy and would make a marvelous text for an English styled anthem or a major choral work by someone who boasts greater compositional gifts than do I. Here is the first stanza, which touches nicely on the points so well made by Vilyanor -

    Behold, the father is his daughter's son:
    The bird that built the nest is hatched therein.
    The old of years an hour hath not outrun;
    Eternal life to live doth now begin.
    The Word is dumb, the mirth of heaven doth weep:
    Might feeble is, and force doth faintly creep.

    ('Swaddled so it can't even move-is the infinity of power...' - saith Vilyanor.)
    Thanked by 4Kathy Paul F. Ford CHGiffen Vilyanor
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Southwell's poem above, along with his A Child, My Choice, would make fine additions to any hymnal.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    Behold, the father is his daughter's son:

    Some may think this is a clever "take" on the mystery of the Blessed Trinity. For me it diminishes the distinct personhood of God the Father and God the Son.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn chonak Adam Wood
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Those familiar with Benjamin Britten's "Ceremony of Carols" will perhaps recognize Southwell in "This little babe, so few days old, has come to rifle Satan's fold" from New Heaven, New War.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    A very nice observation, Fr Krisman. I, though, understood 'father' here as being 'maker' or 'author', or some such: in the sense that it was the Son 'by whom all things were made', and, as St John saith, 'without him was not anything made that was made'. In such light, Jesus, as the creator of the BVM, is her 'father'. It is in that sense that I understand Southwell's words. Still, your distinction is quite nice! Actually, I always tend to think that The Father doesn't really get his due. There are multiple feasts and solemnities throughout the year for Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the Trinity, the BVM, certain saints, even for important stational churches in Rome, but nary a one for the Father. (If I were pope one of my very first acts would be to innovate (!) The Solemnity of God the Father!)


    (And I would commission our greatest living poet to write the propers for it, and Fr Columba Kelly to set them to chant.)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    (If I were pope one of my very first acts would be to innovate (!) The Solemnity of God the Father!)
    As it happens, there is a little movement to urge this, inspired by a questionable case of private revelation.

    But even apart from that, this isn't a good idea. The Canon and the Orations of every Mass are already addressed to God the Father.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Right. Everything in the Mass should be about God, and we shouldn't require one special holy day for it: every day should be a special day devoted to God.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,045
    I find Southwell a little too dense for music, particularly hymns. The imagery is splendid in a context where you can mediate and not have to absorb it in real time.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    I'm a strong believer in theological density. Look at our hymn models, the monastic hymns of the first millennium and a half of Christendom. They are rich with theology.
    Some may think this is a clever "take" on the mystery of the Blessed Trinity.
    The monastic hymns are often clever, too.
    For me it diminishes the distinct personhood of God the Father and God the Son.
    The distinct personhood of the Father and the Son is primarily a matter of the immanent Trinity, not of the creation's relation to the Creator--which is Trinitarian in character. When any Person of the Trinity acts in creation, They all do.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    ...They all do.

    Ineluctably true. But, both St John and the Nicene creed make it clear that Jesus, the Son, was himself the agent of the creation of all things - of everything that was made (created). I think that reality ultimately resides in something of an amalgam of Kathy's and Fr Krisman's concerns. Jesus was The Creator. The Holy Ghost was the agent of fulfillment on Pentecost, and, is the 'Lord and giver of life'. We don't really hear much about the Father except in Genesis' creation accounts, and Jesus' own reference to his Father. The perfect unity of the Triune Majesty cannot be compromised, yet, each of the Persons does seem to act individually at times. Let one of our theologians clarify.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,945
    Interesting, MJO, you mention the Son in creation. I tend to emphaisze all three persons at different times when referring to Creation. The Father generates the Son and the Spirit proceeds from him, so in like manner ceation is principally from the Father. Nothing was made that has been made without the Son, the eternal word who became flesh. And the Spirit is the Lord and giver of life. It goes to show that only the relations distinguish the persons; everything else is shared in the equality of substance.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Thanked by 2MichaelDickson bonniebede
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    Kathy: I assume that there is a message in your blued quote, but if there is one it goes over my head. Let Kathy clarify.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Purple bold means just kidding.

    Blue means click.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,367
    Goodness!
    What an answer!
    Will there be an exam after I have read it???
    Thanked by 3Kathy CHGiffen eft94530
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    The test will be at the gates of heaven. STUDY NOW.

    Tonight the schola sang the Alma Redemptoris Mater--which is probably the source of Southwell's theology of the mother bearing her Father.

    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 986
    To the question of feasting God the Father...isn't the liturgical year primarily a commemoration of God's action in history?

    Just so, there's no Feast of God the Son, but rather feasts commemorating His birth, His resurrection, His ascension, or of the Spirit, but rather of the Spirit's descent. So in a way, the whole liturgical year is a Feast of God the Father. Yes, I know, Most Holy Trinity is flummoxing my little theory.

    I do sympathize, though. A four- or five-year-old version of myself asked my poor mother why we always talked about Jesus in Church, and never about God.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Read Dorothy Sayers' The Mind of the Maker. It makes clear the relationship of the Doctrine of the Trinity to the traditional concept of artistic expression. Closest thing I've read to an artist's profession of faith.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    This error was spotted by a third grader, by the way


    If it was me he reported it to, I might get on my knees begging forgiveness. "I'm so sorry! This might be the first time you noticed the jalopy of modern music belching out a dissonant OOOH-ROOO-GAH!! from its tin klaxon, but sadly it won't be the last."
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    OOOH-ROOO-GAH

    Now I can finally get that organ console spare stop nob engraved.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
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