Congregation in the Choir Loft
  • jdamico30
    Posts: 19
    In the Parish I am Director of Music and Liturgy I noticed immediately last year when I started that the people love to invade the choir loft and sit there for Mass. This is the first place I have ever seen this happen in. I have started visibly blocking off the stairs and one parishioner asked me if I did it purposely so people don't sit up there and I told him yes. He went off about how he has been in the parish for 50 years, has been sitting in that seat for 50 years, how he was been supporting the parish for 50 years and put his 6 kids through the school, and he feels no one should be able to tell him where he can or cannot sit in the church. I explained to him how its inappropriate from a Liturgical standpoint for people to be sitting up here unless they are a part of the the music ministry/choir. Also I explained to him how people come up there and leave their trash everywhere, move stuff around, let their kids run around here, converse during Mass, especially during the singing of hymns which causes a distraction to myself and to the choir. I told him people are disrespecting the space and being here is preventing them from actively participating at Mass. Am I missing something here? Is this guy VERY entitled thinking he owns the place because he's been here 50 years, giving money for 50 years, and has been sitting in THAT seat for 50 years...so you know its HIS seat. I do have the support of the Pastor and Clergy of the Parish and have been told to rope it off and write an explanation in the bulletin. I am trying to do this professionally and would like some input on how to go about it because I know there will be more people who will of course complain. Any input?
  • stulte
    Posts: 355
    I think that any explanation about the congregation not sitting in the choir loft should be written by the pastor and not you. Just my 2¢.
    Thanked by 8CharlesW jdamico30 Liam Daniel Bennett Page CHGiffen eft94530 Ben janetgorbitz
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Give him music and tell him that anyone in the loft has to sing in the choir. It sounds like your parish has a balcony, not a choir loft. You need the pastor in on any change.
    Thanked by 6jdamico30 ClergetKubisz Daniel Bennett Page CHGiffen CCooze Ben
  • jdamico30
    Posts: 19
    I agree with both of you on that matter. Yes its more of a balcony than an actual loft. I have had good friends tell me that I shouldn't be writing a letter, it should be the Pastor, and also the suggestion about if they want to sit in the loft they have to sing in choir has been run by me too. The Pastor agrees that people sitting up there is a problem and it shouldn't happen, I may need to discuss it further with him and request that he write the change and not me like stulte stated.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    The fact that there may be individual congregants who may behave well and not be distracting doesn't eliminate the reality that there are congregants who have not done so, and a uniform policy to prohibit non-musicians from the balcony during liturgy relieves the music director from having to make case-by-case judgments and then having them second-guessed and placing a burden on the pastor to referee.
    Thanked by 4ClergetKubisz melofluent CHGiffen jdamico30
  • sergeantedward
    Posts: 186
    I would follow up with the parishioner, with a personal note affirming them for their role in the church, thanking them, and also thoroughly explaining the reasons why the loft rules are in place. Reasons can include any of the above mentioned, and also protecting instruments, protecting sheet music, protecting something else in the loft, etc.

    At my parish, I have a printed sign at the bottom of the stairs which (gently) explains why the loft is off limits except to musicians. This can really help.

    I've run into the loft problem everywhere I've been, and when I was very young I remember being very confused as to why it was "exclusive." I think it's natural to wonder why there are limits to the loft, and a kind, thorough explanation will probably put it to rest.
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    Yes to the pastor being the author of the note.

    Like others, our church has a small but clearly visible sign at the bottom of the stairs: "Choir members only." It works. If you feel that the sign needs to include an explanation, I'd keep it very very brief, mostly implied, e.g., "Choir members only in the choir loft."
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Instead of banning him, befriend him. Invite him to sit with the men and sing along on the hymns.

    He was there before you were and will be there after you leave...which could be sooner the more you want to run things in a way that has been different for 50 years.

    It's not like he's desecrating a host.

    Build the choir up by befriending people. And put up a sign, "If there's room, come up and sit in the loft, but you and your children are required to sing on the hymns."


    Thanked by 4ClergetKubisz oldhymns PaxMelodious hilluminar
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    The man might not be able to sing, so inviting him to join the choir without an audition is not a good idea.

    Hopefully before you made this decision, you and your pastor were on the same page. If that's not the case, go and talk to your pastor and let the guy sit in the loft until the pastor makes that change.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    That is exactly how I got people out of the loft...when our choir actually used it. After a while, we had an older lady whose knees would not tolerate climbing the stairs (in a choir of 5 mind you, including myself), so we sat down front so that she and her husband (which would have constituted almost 50% of the group) could still sing with us. When people would come up to sit, I would welcome them to the choir and start passing out music. People couldn't run back down fast enough.
    Thanked by 3Daniel Bennett Page CHGiffen CCooze
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    People couldn't run back down fast enough.


    You've made my day!
  • Daniel Bennett PageDaniel Bennett Page
    Posts: 833
    I played for a funeral so packed that not only was every extra seat in the choir loft filled, but someone also asked if they could sit on the end of the organ bench.
    Thanked by 2PaxMelodious eft94530
  • jdamico30
    Posts: 19
    Well Noel change is not a bad thing. Things change all the time. Just because something has been happening for 50 years doesn't mean its the right thing. There is nothing wrong with the empty seats down in the congregation that are there when this man shows up for Mass. I have nothing against him, but his explanation had "entitlement" written all over it. My explanation was thorough and respectful to him and he said he completely understands my explanation, yet he reiterated the amount of time he has been sitting there and the amount of time he has been giving money to the parish. And regarding your suggestion to get him to join the choir...he has never touched a hymn book, I have never seen one open and in his hands. Here is a comparison: Can he take a seat in the Sanctuary during the Mass? No. Why does he want to take a seat in an area that is for the music ministers? Because he likes the view? Because he is away from people? I don't get it. Its not proper in my opinion and shouldn't be something to let go. I have let it go for long enough and it just gets worse and worse as the time goes on.

    For those of you wondering if I made this decision independently or with the support of the Pastor...I have his support and would never make a decision like that without his "ok."
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I have nothing against him, but his explanation had "entitlement" written all over it.


    So you do have something against him - your perception of his attitude.

    A very close relative of mine, a convert, after the death of her mother suffered a nervous breakdown in the 1950's with shock treatments to attempt to help. Could not be alone. Could not be in crowds of people. Could have stayed home from Mass.

    The pastor let her sit in the sacristy or the choir loft (which was hidden from sight) because she did not want to miss Mass.

    Why does he want to take a seat in an area that is for the music ministers? Because he likes the view? Because he is away from people? I don't get it. Its not proper in my opinion and shouldn't be something to let go. I have let it go for long enough and it just gets worse and worse as the time goes on.


    His smell? The amount of room he takes up? Sorry, but he's not getting worse, your attitude is getting worse because of your perceived impression of his attitude.

    You don't get it because you you never asked why before you let this amount of resentment build up.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • jdamico30
    Posts: 19
    Just so you know this is not solely what I feel. The choir and several other parishioners witnessed his outburst and they thought he was way out of line in what he was saying and they also don't understand why people sit up there when they shouldn't. Taking up room? Yes actually. Him and other people who decide to sit up there take up seats meant for the choir and the choir has to sit on their risers, leaving some people who are older and with bad backs without a seat. I have absolutely no negative attitude here, and your judgment is misguided. You don't know the parish, the people, the history of what has happened here. I have been trying to change this for over a year, and it hasn't really been put in place until recently when the new Pastor(because the other one was run out because he didn't do what an elite few of the parish wanted) gave me the go ahead to do what I need to do. There is no resentment, that is ridiculous to say. The man was very disrespectful and spoke down to me. And now you seem to be doing the same. My "perceived impression" of his attitude is based on NUMEROUS things. You're sitting here assuming I'm picking this stuff out of nowhere. I asked for advice, not to be judged by some name on the internet. So to those of you who have been gracious enough to answer me with advice I thank you.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    You know your situation better than anyone here. Do what seems best to you in consultation with and under the direction of the pastor.
    Thanked by 4jdamico30 PaxMelodious CCooze M. Jackson Osborn
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Any input?


    I guess I misunderstood the meaning of "Any input." Sorry. I'd be upset, too now, knowing you have risers and the choir cannot sit.

  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 425
    Why doesn't the choir just get there first and sit in the seats, so that he cannot find room there?

    I have to say - if this is the most difficult problem you face, then you're doing well.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    giving money for 50 years

    And an usher climbs the stairs with a basket?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    All too often, in fact, the worst problems faced by the Music Director and other musicians are indeed the ridiculous, non-musical, mickey-mouse (as in childish), personality driven problems created and perpetrated, ad nauseam, by well-off elitist parishioners who have nothing better to do than make themselves little dukes or duchesses of realms of their own imagination at the expense of others.
    Thanked by 3melofluent CharlesW noel jones, aago
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/ccdds/documents/rc_con_ccdds_doc_20030317_ordinamento-messale_en.html

    General Instruction of the Roman Missal (USA 2003-mar-17)
    [...]
    III. THE ARRANGEMENT OF THE CHURCH

    The Places for the Faithful

    311. Places should be arranged with appropriate care for the faithful so that they are able to participate in the sacred celebrations visually and spiritually, in the proper manner. It is expedient for benches or seats usually to be provided for their use. The custom of reserving seats for private persons, however, is reprehensible.
    [...]
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    I played in a church that had a large balcony with many members of the congregation in it, especially at the Saturday vigil Mass. Once someone got sick up there during the Mass and paramedics were called. The Mass kept going. As I was playing the Sanctus or something, and as the paramedics were carrying the person past me, they asked if I could pull the bench in so they could get by! I said I couldn't, and I think they hoisted him (or her) over my head and left.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    If it were me, I wouldn't even approach it from a rubric/liturgy standpoint. I'd simply approach it (with your pastor, of course) as an issue of the choir loft being your work-space, and the place for the choir. You usually don't wander into people's offices without permission, and in the same way, I would never presume to go sit in a choir loft without permission.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    Actually what really gets my goat is the photographers at weddings. They go in the loft even though they are told not to and sit on the organ bench.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • MichaelDickson
    Posts: 419
    And an usher climbs the stairs with a basket?


    Special people don't contribute to the general offering during mass, because...they're special.
    Thanked by 2canadash eft94530
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    "Instead of banning him, befriend him. Invite him to sit with the men and sing along on the hymns."

    I think Noel's got the right idea. One never knows where one's support is going to come from. Sometimes it even comes from a befriended adversary or critic. One never knows where Jesus is going manifest himself besides the tabernacle or monstrance. He might be lurking in the shadows, on the margins, or a corner of the choir.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago PaxMelodious
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    One never knows where Jesus is going manifest himself besides the tabernacle or monstrance. He might be lurking in the shadows, on the margins, or a corner of the choir.


    Maybe Jesus wants to throw him over the rail, too. LOL. Otherwise, yes it is good to make enemies, if not into friends, at least into amiable supporters.
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    I personally also like the view from the loft / balcony. I love it when I can be up there for Mass. I totally get where this guy is coming from. I think you have the right to say this is the musicians' space, but I don't think it's so unusual for people to want to see everything that is going on, without themselves being seen.
    Also, maybe this allows him to skip the sign of peace, or something.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Or skip Communion?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Also, maybe this allows him to skip the sign of peace, or something.


    I have known folks who left to miss the sign of peace, or sharing of microbes - another consideration in flu season.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Of course, there are some churches where the lines of vision were absolutely perfect...before the council.

    I have been in churches that were so well designed that you could kneel in the back of the loft or the back of the nave and see the high altar (or, rather, where the high altar used to be) perfectly. But the new altars that were put in, usually 3 feet lower and 6 feet forward of where the old altar was, generally do not respect the lines of vision intended by the original architect - you can kneel in the fifth row from the front and not be able to see anything. Often the best view of the sanctuary is in the organist's rear-view mirror.
    Thanked by 6CharlesW CHGiffen noel jones, aago ClergetKubisz MatthewRoth tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    Easiest way to avoid shaking hands is to cough and wipe you own nose and mouth with your hands right at that time.
    Thanked by 4CharlesW ClergetKubisz tomjaw eft94530
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    see everything that is going on, without themselves being seen.

    http://www.lmgtfy.com/?q=voyeur
  • Reval
    Posts: 180
    Oooh - - liturgy voyeur. Is that a thing?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Apparently not.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • ViolaViola
    Posts: 393
    The custom of reserving seats for private persons, however, is reprehensible.

    H'm. A church I went to as a child (my Dad was organist) had a roped off area in part of the choir loft containing velvet cushioned seats, reserved for the local lord of the manor (this is England) and his family. Their ancestors had built the church 300+ years previously. As far as I know this family still enjoys the privilege and the choir still sit on hard wooden backless benches.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    The custom of reserving seats for private persons, however, is reprehensible.


    This is why I only go to the Extraordinary Form.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    To me there is a difference between reserving seats for private persons ("Excuse me: This is Mrs. Baker's seat. She's sat here for past 50 years, could you please move somewhere else?") and reserving seats for dignitaries and certain honored guests ("RESERVED FOR HER MAJESTY, THE QUEEN").
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,947
    It also differs from the Protestant custom of paying for reserved places in pews.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    the Protestant custom of paying for reserved places in pews.


    I will mail you a dollar if you can name five places in the United States that do that today, or have done it at any point in the last decade.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    That remains the Jewish custom of paying for reserved places in pews on High Holy days, which are the most attended services...I seem to recall that the entire donation for the year assigns seats. And all are required to attend on Yom Kippur, if my memory is right.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    When I was a child, everyone paid pew rents. I remember that well. This was in a Catholic parish.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    https://diosav.org/sites/all/files/archives/S8644p03.pdf
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Given that 40% of our congregation contributes nothing on Sundays, pew rents are not such a bad idea - at least for those folks.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Gosh, Charles...I didn't know that you were a backwards convert!
  • jdamico30
    Posts: 19
    Ha 2 Christmas' ago in this Parish someone "donated" a hefty sum to the church and in return they had a reserved pew for one of the most packed Masses on Christmas...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Gosh, Charles...I didn't know that you were a backwards convert!


    I am not a convert, I am Byzantine throughout. We don't have pews and can't charge for them.

    Many studies have compared Catholic giving to Protestant giving, and Catholic congregations come off badly when compared with their Protestant brethren. I have always believed that tithing is a good thing and when you consider it, not much for the Church or the Lord to ask of us.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,464
    I have also seen parishes (and not uppity ones) which allow parishioners to buy parking spaces closer to the entrance.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    This is why I only go to the Extraordinary Form.

    Ben, though sympathetic to the reality expressed, if evangelizing folks to abandon the NO is your objective, abject dismissal and contradiction to their sensibilities (such as they are) is not likely an effective strategy. Use honey instead of vinegar.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,943
    "if evangelizing folks to abandon the NO is your objective,"

    (cough)
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    It was just a joke about wanting to rent a pew, that's all..please excuse my admittedly bizarre sense of humor. :)

    In reality, I attend EF/OF about 50/50
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