Feeling guilty
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    I just played for a funeral. There were no requests and no cantor, so I sang myself. I sang "Grant him eternal rest" for the Entrance, played "Pie Jesu" (Faure) for the Offertory, sang "May light eternal" for Communion, and "May the angels lead you into paradise" for the recessional. This I think is what the Church wants for her funeral Masses. I always feel guilty, though, thinking that, since these songs are unfamiliar to the mourners, that I'm not consoling them. Hopefully the prayers of these songs are helping the deceased, but I still feel guilty for not providing the "familiar". Hoping to hear: "you're doing the right thing" from this Forum. Thanks!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have often thought that the genuine "mourners" are not listening that closely. Funerals can be so emotionally draining, that is how it seems to me.
    Thanked by 2Ben Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    There's no need to feel any guilt, henry. The funeral rites and its attending music serve the same function as other sacramental liturgies: thanksgiving and praise to the Trinity for the sacrifice of Our Lord on the Cross; edification and evangelization for all, believer and unbeliever alike to enter into that realm of prayer and "die to self" themselves; and to witness to the truth that our faith and our prayers on behalf of the deceased soul are a corporate act, as much for ourselves as for the directly bereaved. Familiarity isn't necessarily required nor eschewed. Truth and beauty, always welcomed. Well done.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    FWIW, the music given for Masses for the dead tends to help those who are mourning.

    Don’t feel guilty at all.
    Thanked by 2JonLaird Gavin
  • JonLaird
    Posts: 242
    What many often forget, or do not realize, is that the Catholic Church knows how to do funerals. Trust that tradition and you are doing the best that can be done.
  • Remember one important purpose of the Requiem: to assist the deceased. Don't feel guilty, or sad.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Those pieces which henry sang sound unmistakably like prayers, so they remind the grieving that the Church is praying for the departed loved one. Surely that is a kind and welcome message!
  • The Propers are the prayers of the church. It is a blessing to sing the prayers of the church. It is a blessing for the deceased, as the church elevates her prayers interceding for him. It is also a blessing for those who, been away from the church until that day of the funeral, get to hear these beautiful words and music. Job well done!
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    We sing the processional chants and the Pie Jesu at all funerals at the parish where I am DM: Many people have remarked at how comforting they are - they are simply the texts given by the Church. I have never had that comment about 'the old standards'.
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • I don't think you should ignore your feelings here: obviously there was something that happened which triggered your instincts that the funeral was not quite right, and this is where your dis-ease comes from. Ignoring that and just blindly following the rules will tend to dull you sensitivity to minister to people long term.
  • ..and just blindly following the rules


    One can follow the rules, I know many great organists who do just that. I do not know anyone who "blindly" follows the rules. That requires a more clear explanation and a very specific example.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Blaise
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Rules.

    Most people ignore them.
    Very few follow them.
    Many laugh and scorn at those who do.

    Those who discover them
    Find a sure guide
    And a well worn path
    And a way of peace and security.

    Often you will find that simple path
    Camouflaged deep in the weeds;
    Weeds that only grew
    Because the foolish determine
    To find a 'new and better way'
    And stray from the sure path.
    The path then becomes hidden.
    Only a few find it.

    The blind lead the blind.
    But your path, O Lord,
    Is a light for my feet.


  • Somehow Cardinal Newman's text comes to mind, Francis, but I can't quote it from memory just at the moment.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Somehow Cardinal Newman's text comes to mind, Francis, but I can't quote it from memory just at the moment.



    SOFTLY and gently, dearly-ransomed soul,
    In my most loving arms I now enfold thee,
    And, o’er the penal waters, as they roll,
    I poise thee, and I lower thee, and hold thee.

    And carefully I dip thee in the lake,
    And thou, without a sob or a resistance,
    Dost through the flood thy rapid passage take,
    Sinking deep, deeper, into the dim distance.
    Angels, to whom the willing task is given,
    Shall tend, and nurse, and lull thee, as thou liest;
    And Masses on the earth and prayers in heaven,
    Shall aid thee at the Throne of the most Highest.

    Farewell, but not forever! Brother dear,
    Be brave and patient on thy bed of sorrow;
    Swiftly shall pass thy night of trial here,
    And I will come and wake thee on the morrow.
  • Adam,


    Beautiful, but not what I had in mind.

    I read this:

    Rules.

    Most people ignore them.
    Very few follow them.
    Many laugh and scorn at those who do.

    Those who discover them
    Find a sure guide
    And a well worn path
    And a way of peace and security.


    And thought of this:

    nor prayed that Thou
    shouldst lead me on;
    I loved to choose
    and see my path; but now
    Lead Thou me on.
    I loved the garish day
    and spite of fears
    Pride ruled my will:
    remember not past years.i>
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Oh that's good too. I had funerals in mind, so that's why I was thinking of the one I posted.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • I’m going to “buck the trend” here and answer your question with a question:

    What did your pastor think of the music?

    Seriously, if your pastor doesn’t support it, then I would say to avoid advocating for chant propers at funerals. Ultimately, you are there at the pastor’s behest, and it’s your job to implement the liturgy as he sees fit.

    That may sound a bit relativistic, but it’s really just pragmatism: if someone doesn’t like what you’re doing he/she will complain to the pastor. If the pastor doesn’t like what you’re doing, even if his words support you, his tacit disquiet will encourage the “plaintiffs”. (And if his words don’t support you, start sending out résumés!)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Definition:

    "Blindly following the rules" == "following the rules I don't like"
    (Note: this is only predicated of other people.)
  • Or -
    'Breaking all the rules' == 'breaking the rules I like.'
    (Note: this is only predicated of other people.)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen chonak
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    At one funeral over which my former pastor presided, as he processed from the sacristy to the narthex I had chanted the Requiem aeternum. Afterwards, he casually remarked that he didn't prefer its use at all because "It's no longer part of our rites." I didn't argue. I've since continued to chant it now at every funeral I assist. Basically, "Monsignor, you know your job, I know mine, sorry about your personal preference (and ill-informed notions.)"
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    Felipe Gaspar: the funeral I described was one I played as a substitute in a neighboring parish. The pastor (who said the Mass) didn't say anything, nor did anyone else. This parish has called me several times, so I don't know if that's an indication that they are satisfied with my work (or if they're desperate!)
  • Next time play Eagle Wings, charge $150 and you will be absolved.
  • henry
    Posts: 241
    The song I really can't bring myself to use is "O Domine Jesu Christe". Even though it's the Offertory Song of the Funeral Mass, I can't bring myself to sing about saving the deceased from being delivered into the lion's jaws and cast into hell - poor mourners!
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    If this is the Novus Ordo, the Graduale Romanum lists sever other alternate Offertoria for funeral Masses besides the Domine Jesu Christe. De profundis is one I often use, or Illumine oculi mei (sp.? Don't have the Graduale in front of me!), there are others, too.

    One thing I think that it's important to remember is that the Requiem Mass isn't about the mourners, it's about the deceased. And I'm sure that when I die I will desperately want someone to pray that I may be delivered from the Lion's Jaw, the Pains of Hell and the Deep Pit; personally I like the Domine Jesu Christe - but then again, I like the Dies Irae, too. YMMV
  • dhalkjdhalkj
    Posts: 61
    The verse of that Offertory is

    Sacrifice and prayer do we offer to thee, O Lord:
    Do thou accept them for the souls departed
    in whose memory we make this oblation:
    and grant them, Lord, to pass from death unto life:

    At the cemetery mass I have gotten in the habit of starting with that in English and then continuing with the antiphon (or just the respond part depending on time) in Latin.

    The beginning of this topic also struck a chord. It can take a lot of nerve to start singing unaccompanied chant in a place that has never had it before and there can be a lot of inner questioning. I well remember my trepidation 15 years ago when I started singing a chant at communion time. But now the people who fill on for my summer holidays just regard it as part of the regular routine that they have to keep going. I've even have wedding couples specifically request it.
  • At funerals, nearly as a rule, I play "Christ Lag in Todes Banden" from the Orgelbüchlein a la Guilmant, very soft and slow, making a lot of the transition from sadness to joy, and then perhaps "Blessed are Ye Faithful Souls" by Brahms. I always chant the Introit in English as the priest and ministers go to meet the casket in the midst of the nave, and then the Communio as the priest receives. The organ postlude (always necessary, as the door out clogs with people during the recessional hymn) is always No. 30 from Benoit's Fifty Elevations.

    Christ Lag in Todes Banden

    These are "soft spots" in the liturgy that are not planned by the mourners or bereavement. Otherwise, I do exactly what I'm told. I'm amazed at how such a few consistent injections of the liturgical spirit of a funeral Mass increase the depth of the ceremony.

    Most liturgies do end up containing "How great thou art on eagle's wings, amazing Grace; be not afraid, here I am, I have loved you, gentle woman, and you are mine," i.e. comfort hymns sung for the benefit of the mourners, rather than as prayers for the deceased. But, I think it is important to realize too that, things being what they are, many of the pew folk will not have a strong sense of a Christian attitude towards death, and such songs, while perhaps not bringing them all the way to prayer for the deceased, may, in their way, at least help keep them back from despair, which is perhaps even worse than an exaggerated hope.

    If a mass setting is not requested, I do the current seasonal parish setting, unless it becomes painfully obvious early on that the mourners are neither Catholic nor participating in the rites, in which case I sing the ICEL chants (our Advent and Lenten setting) in English with speed and dignity.
  • If a mass setting is not requested, I do the current seasonal parish setting, unless it becomes painfully obvious early on that the mourners are neither Catholic nor participating in the rites, in which case I sing the ICEL chants (our Advent and Lenten setting) in English with speed and dignity.


    Francis and I will read what you wrote -- that you use the ICEL chant when the mourners are not Catholic and are not singing -- as evidence that Catholics don't know Catholic chant, or that the good stuff is what you use for the non-Catholics, or that ICEL's chant isn't Catholic. Which did you mean to convey?
  • Chris,

    As I explain in the paragraph you cite, if the congregation are participatory, I use the seasonal setting. I further explain in the same paragraph that the ICEL Chants are the parish's Advent and Lenten setting.

    Thus you ought to have been able to discern that, if a funeral occurs in Advent or Lent, it gets the ICEL Chants, no matter what, rather than crafting the somewhat bizarre dilemma on whose horns you meant to impale me. It is also patent from the plain sense of my text that my parish know these chants, as they are seasonal chants for two liturgical seasons.

    Whether ICEL's chant is Catholic is a judgment I leave to you.

    The reason I don't default to them in other seasons is that the setting of the Ordinary is a resource that rotates in and out of the pews by season, and I like the congregation to have the music available to them when I expect them to sing.

    I default to the ICEL chants when singing is apparently not going to happen, because they are based upon the requiem chants, and so highly appropriate, and because they are short enough that it is not awkward to sing them through as a solo as the congregation wait for it to finish.
  • NihilNominis,

    I've got to learn how to use purple. No harm was intended. I found the way that you had written the paragraph amusingly unclear -- i.e., unclear because what I proposed was understandable to the purposely obtuse -- and thought I might raise the question.
    Thanked by 1NihilNominis
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    PURPLE_BOLD=on
    ... this always works for me ...
    PURPLE_BOLD=off
  • As I explain in the paragraph you cite, if the congregation are participatory, I use the seasonal setting. I further explain in the same paragraph that the ICEL Chants are the parish's Advent and Lenten setting.


    I have a problem with the impression that tI am getting that you evaluate the congregation and make your music choices instead of presenting music that suits the liturgy. Especially because of your statement, which I agree with, "I'm amazed at how such a few consistent injections of the liturgical spirit of a funeral Mass increase the depth of the ceremony. "

    So why not make the ceremony truly deep and dump all the emotional stuff? Seriously? Who IS the Mass for?

    You've posted some interesting comments and thoughts, thanks!
    Thanked by 1NihilNominis
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    http://www.hprweb.com/2015/08/the-great-catholic-music-debate/

    I might offer that all of us take into serious consideration what this author brings to this particular discussion.

    Nutshell: One pole: It's the Fundamental Way or the highway. Opposite pole: "Whatever you want, you poor dears." Middle ground: be responsible in your advisement, and don't argue upon differences, rather-counsel and persuade.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,372
    I have a problem with the impression that tI am getting that you evaluate the congregation and make your music choices instead of presenting music that suits the liturgy.

    I get the impression that NihilNominis is choosing from the wide range of valid options those that will best answer the needs of the congregation. Surely that is why the church offers a range of options.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Soup or salad?
    Beef or Chicken?

    Jelly Beans!
  • I find it interesting what presumptions are being made about the Mass settings I use that aren't the ICEL Chants... [Mischievous Grin]

    Noel,

    As for why I don't "dump the emotional stuff":

    1) The bereaved plan a part of the funeral liturgy themselves, a process in which I am not involved. They are restricted in their choices to the hymnal. I do not program that music, but I do execute it. To do anything else would be, I think, incredibly inappropriate. My choices are confined to the part they do not plan.

    I think the resulting balance between what they have chosen and the prayerful texts and music appointed by the Church for the occasion, is pastorally, if not intrinsically, ideal. It lends liturgical objectivity to a service that remains "meaningful" and personally significant, as those words are commonly used, to those attending, with absolutely no disruption of flow, or even of that sense of at-homeness that Fr. Gamber insists is essential to good liturgy, and which I think we must strive to retain at every step along the road to improvement.

    2) Since my approach to Sunday liturgy is similar, I will say that it is often more effective to strike people with something beautiful and timeless that they've never heard before in an environment that still feels familiar and sets them at ease, than to, in a moment of extreme stress, set them in an environment in which there is nothing familiar and comfortable, leaving them feeling alienated, confused, and, ultimately, closed to precisely what you would like to teach them to appreciate.

    Now, you are perhaps saying, "But eventually you want to show them a truly integrated liturgy, right?!" For me, the most formative piece of advice on that front has been, if that's your goal, get creative and invent a new liturgical or para-liturgical opportunity in your parish that you can build from the ground up.

    For me, it has been weekly choral Stations of the Cross during Lent. Since these are every week, we do not sing a motet at each station, so it is not an undue commitment of time for the weekly devotees or burden for the choir. The presider and servers enter to the Dubois "Adoramus Te," we sing a motet at the 4th Station, usually a Rheinberger Ave Maria or Stabat Mater movement, O Sacred Head at the 12th, a Sepulto Domino at the 14th, or "Do Not Lament Me, O Mother," segue to Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament with a beautiful Tantum Ergo setting written by a friend of mine, a Eucharistic Motet, perhaps Byrd's Ave Verum, and then, after Benediction, the Divine Praises, set to chant by a priest I know. We close to "Lift High the Cross." I prepare a program with texts and translations for all of these.

    The parish uses one of these services as an opportunity to present the Creed to the RCIA elect, and so all of the catechumens are, in the course of their formation in the parish, exposed to this form of sung prayer, and some of the rich tradition of Catholic choral music, as well as to Stations of the Cross and Benediction of the Blessed Sacrament. They nearly always express their appreciation for this experience.

    In addition, the program I am, Deo volente, in the process of building, has received enthusiastic support and encouragement at once from parishioners who were, because of the music, regular attendees at the contemporary-style Mass whose music group spontaneously disbanded about 5 years before I came, and who apparently did not like a great deal of what came after, as well as conservatory-trained professional musicians within the parish, some of whom have a background in chant.

    So, I would say that this approach of wide retention and gradualism has worked for me. I view my goal more in terms of fostering excellent choral singing, instilling a love of good music in the parish, and crafting a musical liturgy in which repertoire from the entire Catholic tradition may find a happy home, than that of turning the tables of the money-changers, as what is not ideal, or even what is deplorable, is not always evil. And what is not evil, we may wisely tolerate to the advantage of the better.

    I am also a firm believer in a somewhat uniform and consistent parish liturgy, as opposed to the effective subdivision of the parish into fan clubs on the basis of Mass time, as I still hold out hope for worship that expresses real unity within a parish, across the Rite, and throughout the entire Church, both inwardly and outwardly. Your results may vary.

    Predictably, I find the article in HPR dead-on.
  • ossian1898ossian1898
    Posts: 142
    Church musicians need to not feel bad about making correct musical decisions that are befitting of the liturgy. There are occasions where one can argue that it might be inadvisable or even imprudent, depending on the sensibilities of your pastor or the mourners, to allow space for sentimentalism to inform your musical decisions. I think we all need to remember that we serve God in the liturgy first...even at funerals and weddings.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Seriously? Who IS the Mass for?

    The God who has no need of our praise? If God doesn't need it, then why are we doing it? Because we need to pray, to mourn, to rejoice, to lament etc. Emotions are the basic building block which God gave human beings to live the spiritual life with. Dumping them does not seem be respectful of God's creation.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ossian1898ossian1898
    Posts: 142
    It is not a matter of who the liturgy is for. Also, where are you getting that emotions are the "basic building blocks" of the spiritual life? Isn't faith a matter of intellect, not emotions?

    If we take as our guiding liturgical principle that the Mass is solely for the faithful and that the emotional response of the liturgy is the most important thing, where will that lead us?
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Isn't faith a matter of intellect, not emotions?


    These are not the only two options.
  • Adam,

    Surely you mean that one does not always need to pick between these two, as if they are in opposition?

    God bless,

    Chris
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The Mass, in its full realization, evangelically calls all people, each a sinner, to look and behold. It is not about "satisfying God or thems that show up."
  • It's not either/or. It's both/and.
    Faith and emotions - and intellect/intuition.
    At various times one or both or all these will come into play. God made them all.
    True, God has no need of our worship.
    But, having created us, he is entitled to it, and, I should think, expects it.
    No, he doesn't need it - but we very much need to offer it lest we be impudent ingrates.

    And the mass? It is very much a reciprocal act between God and man.
    We give (praise and thanksgiving) and we get (word and sacrament)
    God gives (word and sacrament) and gets (praise and thanksgiving)

    It's not about 'us', not about 'the community', etc. It is about God and mankind's covenant relationship with God, without whom there would be no 'I', nor 'us', nor 'community'. Nor emotion, intellect, revelation, intuition - no being at all.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ossian1898ossian1898
    Posts: 142
    Who said anything about options? And why are you looking at it as an either/or? Emotions are a natural thing, they aren't bad. Music generates an emotional response, but it isn't the point of liturgical music to do that. That is one of the reasons Chant is so fitting to the liturgy, because while an emotional response may be present (and even desired sometimes), it is moderated.

    But PaxMelodius said that:

    "Emotions are the basic building block which God gave human beings to live the spiritual life with."


    That is the statement I disagree with. Emotions are not building blocks, they are the spackle.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Surely you mean that one does not always need to pick between these two, as if they are in opposition?


    That is part of what I meant.

    why are you looking at it as an either/or?


    No, you did that. You suggested that faith is a matter of one thing (intellect), and not another thing (emotion).


    To me, this is like saying, "Math isn't about addition. It's really about multiplication."
    Or
    "Writing isn't really about proper grammar. It's really about proper spelling."


    I suggest that faith involves both those things, and many other things.


    Emotions are not building blocks, they are the spackle.


    This is a both/and situation. In that both one idea and the other are terrible.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • 1) The bereaved plan a part of the funeral liturgy themselves, a process in which I am not involved. They are restricted in their choices to the hymnal. I do not program that music, but I do execute it. To do anything else would be, I think, incredibly inappropriate. My choices are confined to the part they do not plan.


    "They are restricted in their choices to the hymnal."

    There is nothing "wrong" with your approach. This sentence removes the thought that "anything" could be chosen by people. If I had understood that there were controls in your system, which there are, I would have been less...interested in commenting.

    Jumping off to the emotions discussion. Any decision made based upon emotions can be very dangerous. This applies to business and music.
    Thanked by 1NihilNominis
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    As a mathematician, I can assure you that mathematics is vastly more than just about addition and multiplication. By the same token, faith is vastly more than just about intellect and emotion.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    For some of the prominent in our culture, mathematics is their religion.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    For some of the prominent in our culture, mathematics is their religion.
    But that is not at all what mathematics really is; rather, it is yet another sadly mistaken and prominent misunderstanding.
  • The God who has no need of our praise?


    The mass is the work of the Lord, not ours. His praise, which is His holy death and sacrifice, is what we offer, not our praise. This is what the Catholic mass does that no other "mass" or "service" can do.