9-fold Kyrie during Lent and Advent?
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    What are your thoughts on using a 9-fold Kyrie during Lent and Advent. With the absence of the Gloria, it wouldn't unduly lengthen proceedings.

    As far as I am aware, the practice is for a 6-fold Kyrie, but 9-fold is nowhere prohibited in the Ordinary Form liturgy.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    A rubric in the Graduale Romanum 1974 (p. 709) confirms that ninefold Kyries should be sung in full.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn noel jones, aago CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Here we are again!
    As with chant itself, I just wonder why only 'during Advent and Lent'.
    This is lamentable, an infelicitous message.
    As with chant itself, there are numerous ecstatically joyful Kyries.
    Thanked by 4a_f_hawkins noel jones, aago rich_enough CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Absolutely! The rubrics on that page also call for using the more ornate melodies on more solemn celebrations.
    Thanked by 3M. Jackson Osborn noel jones, aago CHGiffen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    The essence of eleison is (God's) enduring love, which psalmists say outweighs even parental love. It would be good to celebrate this in Lent, but only when the congregation has understood that the Kyrie is not intended as a lamentation.
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    I believe the six-fold arrangement was driven by the practice of the priest saying
    Kyrie eleison and the people responding. In the old dialogue Mass, nine-fold was de rigeur, and so it was priest: Kyrie, people: Kyrie; priest: Kyrie; people:Christe, priest: Christe, people: Christe, etc., in other words an asymmetrical arrangement; this asymmetry was remedied by the six-fold prescription.

    The rubrics say that the Kyrie can be sung nine-fold for musical reasons; this probably was meant for those Kyries like Mass IX, where the individual Kyries have different melodies. But I would contend that another musical reason justifies the nine-fold arrangement: when the congregation sing the Kyrie, they get half again as much practice in a nine-fold arrangement. In teaching a new Kyrie to a congregation, I hear a very hesitant performance once, the second time, a little better, but the third time much more confident. The third invocation seems to me essential to the confident learning by the congregation.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I've alao heard of this arrangement being used effectively as a ninefold kyrie:

    Kyrie: choir (chant)
    Kyrie: people (chant)
    Kyrie: choir (polyphony)

    Etc
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Ben's prescription is more or less along the lines of several ninefold Kyrie settings, including this one of my own (from the Missa Ascensionis Domini.
    1a-Kyrie.pdf
    85K
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The point about Advent and Lent was because I wanted to use these seasons as an opportunity to introduce chant masses to the parish, with the view that the congregation will then use them on weekday masses without needing a choir.

    I wasn't talking about restricting the Kyrie's 9-fold form to those seasons. I was pointing out that with the absence of the Gloria, you may find less opposition from people complaining that the music was taking too long.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I was pointing out that with the absence of the Gloria, you may find less opposition from people complaining that the music was taking too long.


    I did this last year (9-fold Kyrie from Mass VIII) during Advent, and people still complained that the music was taking too long.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The real issue, it seems to me, is that many in the west hold the view that the Kyrie is somehow penitential. It isn't. It is the remnant of a litany that the reformers could have restored, had they really wanted to be that authentic and faithful to earlier practices. Go hear a Kyrie in an eastern church which will give you an idea of what it is actually supposed to be.
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    '...taking too long...'

    I'll bet they wouldn't complain of it taking too long if it had been a guitar version that took the same amount of time! Time doesn't enter in with respect to what people like. It's never time. It's always just a cover up for just plain old 'I don't like that' gruntled by crotchety shut-minded folk of all ages. These people are liturgical grinches.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,959
    MJO phrased it so well.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Go hear a Kyrie in an eastern church which will give you an idea of what it is actually supposed to be.


    AND AGAIN, LET US PRAY...
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    AND AGAIN, LET US PRAY...


    You can never ask for God's mercy too much or too often.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen ryand
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,959
    When I attend Divine Liturgy, I know the litany is coming at the two points it occurs. But it still takes me by surprise...hopefully I get to go to another DL this semester. We usually have one in the fall and another in the spring.
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