Rossini (Im)propers?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Something different:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fujYoh0SXBs
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Small town churches needed to have the propers sung every morning to permit the priest to be paid a higher fee for the high Mass. I shudder to think what was done before the Rossini were available.

    A recent statement that the US church was LOW mass territory is silly. The "other" makes on Sunday were low due to a lack of musicians to sing the mass. But there was a daily high mass in every church, often two or three, every day across the US. Until now.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,371
    Missa Cantata is not High Mass
    This high Mass is the norm; it is only in the complete rite with deacon and subdeacon that the ceremonies can be understood. .... A sung Mass (missa Cantata) is a modern compromise. It is really a low Mass, since the essence of high Mass is not the music but the deacon and subdeacon. Only in churches which have no ordained person except one priest, and in which high Mass is thus impossible, is it allowed to celebrate the Mass (on Sundays and feasts) with most of the adornment borrowed from high Mass, with singing and (generally) with incense. The Sacred Congregation of Rites has on several occasions (9 June, 1884; 7 December, 1888) forbidden the use of incense at a Missa Cantata
    written, I think, in 1910, possibly by Fr Adrian Fortescue.

    I know nothing of practice in the USA, but this parish (Archdiocese of Liverpool, England) has been single manned since it was established 150 years ago, and the neighbouring parishes are the same.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,945
    In the United States, we refer to Missa Cantata as High Mass oftentimes, and the Mass with deacon and subdeacon as Solemn High Mass.

    I also think the essence of the Mass is both the music and the ministers. Solemn High Mass with no propers or Gregorian ordinary would be ridiculous, and Sung Mass without the other ministers seems incomplete.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    ... since the essence of high Mass is not the music but the deacon and subdeacon.

    What a silly statement. "Essence"? Sorry, but I can't believe Fortescue would ever have written such a thing.
    Thanked by 4Adam Wood CHGiffen StimsonInRehab hilluminar
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    The quote is from the entry "Liturgy of the Mass" from the 1910 Catholic Encyclopedia.

    http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09790b.htm

    According to the example bibliography given on the New Advent copy of the page, the article was written by Fortescue.

    It's hard to argue with the citation, given any other data to go on. But I do agree with Fr. @ronkrisman that it sounds weird.
    Thanked by 1ronkrisman
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    I cannot imagine the dreariness of propers all sung to the same psalm tone throughout a liturgical season.

    I have had to psalm-tone some propers, but I've used the same tones as the proper was originally written.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    So why were the Rossini so popular if the same tone as the proper was originally written?

    Have you ever seen the Rossini? Or experienced their dreariness?
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,045
    I sang them for a season at a local Latin Mass church here. I have more experience with the Burgess Anglican equivalent. Now I experience the "dreariness" of the Pater noster, Sursum cord and responses, and have experienced the "dreariness" of psalm tones at Colloquium. My point is this: if one doesn't expect something to be interesting, one doesn't mind that it's not; indeed, its very unchangingness is a selling point. I'd never put Rossini on a Best Practices list, and suspect that their frequent use was from laziness more than necessity. But not everyone has my requirements for musical novelty.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    There's always alternatives - the Chants Abreges or the Tozer Graduale.

    I believe the original post is Rossini's setting of the Compline Prayer tamquam leo rugiens . . .
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Let's not forget the Graduate Simplex. I know it never became popular, but after perusing that book for some time now, I'm becoming a champion of it. It has so much to offer.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    We use the GS very often. Good stuff.
  • BGP
    Posts: 215
    "... since the essence of high Mass is not the music but the deacon and subdeacon."

    Yes that is Fortescue. He says the same in his Ceremonies of the Roman Rite Described. It's a rather dogmatic and narrow opinion (and I disagree). He was a very opinionated man, for example absolutely opposed to "roman " style vestments and in favor of the gothic type.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    absolutely opposed to "roman " style vestments and in favor of the gothic type.


    Clearly a man of good taste.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Stim:
    I love the Chants Abreges. I always use it in favor of psalm tones.

    JQ:
    I have no problem with psalm tones being used in their proper liturgical context (the chanting of psalm verses during the office, introit and communion). However, it's sad to see them used for everything. You don't use a steak knife to flip pancakes, and you don't use a spatula to eat steak. Everything in the Roman Rite has it's own proper tone, and it's a shame to see those disregarded. Yes, I'm speaking in the ideal situation. But even when it isn't attainable at the present moment, the ideal always has to be kept in mind. It's not "musical novelty." It's the music of the Roman Rite.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Jeffrey Quick
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    You don't use a steak knife to flip pancakes, and you don't use a spatula to eat steak.


    BEN YANKE IS A NARROW MINDED UTENSIL FASCIST.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW Ben
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    image
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Ben Jeffrey Quick
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Make no misteak about it, one could easily get flipped out at this revelation.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Cutlery approved pronouns...... hmmm.

    In French, knife is masculine. Fork is only feminine because it's a diminutive of "pitch fork" (i.e., trident).

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Sexist, racist, utensil-phobe.

  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XbCWmY0eqY
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Does this count as food humor?
  • BGP
    Posts: 215
    @Adam, good taste. Yes, but one can question whether ones personal opinions should be sprinkled through out a rubrical manual without caveat.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    one can question whether ones personal opinions should be sprinkled through out a rubrical manual without caveat.


    I see no problem with this as long as they are THE SAME AS MY OPINIONS.
  • BGP
    Posts: 215
    Ha.
  • barnabus1898barnabus1898
    Posts: 90
    This brings up a few questions for me, and I've loved reading this thread!
    1. Isn't the Graduale Simplex for Novus Ordo? It doesn't seem to line up for TLM use (unless I'm reading it wrong).
    2. Love the Chants Abreges... except for the Alleluias. They're too short for my taste. I'm also trying to get my schola ready for when we make the transitions to full melismatic alleluias. Is there another resource that has options similar to Chants Abreges for Propers besides the Gradual and Alleluia? (Looked at the Tozer and Labouré and they seem too simple).


    When I first started our schola, we psalm toned everything. My plan has been to add one full Proper a year, and utilize some simpler settings when available. We are currently singing the full Communion Proper (with psalm verses) and using the Chants Abreges Gradual. To give them a feeling of what I call (combat conditions) with an Alleluia, we've been using the optional "short" Alleluias on pg. 113 of the Rossini before the psalm verses. During Easter, we used the longer Alleluias for the Greater Alleluia, and the shorter ones for the Lesser.

    My schola now has a very good idea of how to sing psalm tones (every once in a while we get a curve ball ending). I've noticed that their reading has greatly improved since we started using the Chants Abreges for Gradual and doing the full Communion. I just needed something to get their feet wet. I think if I keep adding one full Proper a year, we will have just enough comfort/proficiency to keep up. I've overloaded them a few times in my excitement, and had to learn to be patient.

    I think the Rossini was a life saver for getting our Missa Cantatas rolling, but I know they are not ideal. We will not be staying there however. It is my intention that my schola will be singing full Propers (and hopefully some polyphony) before everything is said and done.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    @Barnabus: you're correct and that is a fact that I did not consider when making the suggestion at first: the GS is for the Novus Ordo. However, I'm not sure if it can be adapted for use in the EF or not, although at first glance it seems theoretically possible. This discussion may have been trending toward the EF and not the OF, although it was never explicitly stated. However, your observation is correct.
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