Playing and Singing...at the same time.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Anybody else have problems accompanying yourself? Every once in a while I have to do this and I'm never really satisfied with my performance, especially the singing. Any tips for appoggio while sitting?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Select a lovely soft, deep pedal stop - perhaps the most powerful bourdon. Press down the low D on the pedal. Start chanting in Mode I. When appropriate move your foot down to low C. When appropriate move your food back to D.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood JDE
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    That is way more useful than the last organ-playing advice I heard from you.
    Thanked by 1Ben
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yes, I have overwhelming problems when I am accompanying myself with a harmonica or a Jaw Harp. Should I try throat singing or overtones?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    That is way more useful than the last organ-playing advice I heard from you.


    You mean the one about forming your hands into terrible looking claws, slamming them down on the manual and holding down the horrible chord that it produces as the perfect start to any improv?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    That was it.
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,499
    It is difficult, especially when the words are on a different page than the tune. Brutal. My best advice would be to study the text of what you will be singing so it is almost memorized and you just need a few visual cues.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    I do it every week. I don't have many problems (missing words/notes) but I can't say that I'd win any singing competitions. Right now I'm on a quest to find enough cantors so that I can retire from being one and just play the organ.
  • I'm baffled by this question... or, perhaps, the responses.
    I always sing quietly or mentally when playing hymns and ordinaries. If one isn't doing this one really doesn't understand or communicate to the people the music-text symbiosis, one is just playing notes the same way through every stanza. You want your people to sing? Make song out of your accompaniments! You can't do this without singing sotto voce or mentally.

    As for the claw treatment. I have on rare occasions felt like doing this if a congregation just absolutely refused to sing! (Either that or a recto tono tutti on the low C pedal, a solution that Adam might enjoy!)
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen matthewj
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    MJO its like playing the organ for Mass and being a cantor for the OF at the same time. There are lots if people who do it, but the advice I'm seeking is how do you do this and still sing in a satisfactory manner, ie with healthy vocalism.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    MJO,

    Singing mentally and doing it out loud are two different things. For one, you don't run out of breath when singing mentally (or do you?).
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I sing along with the choir while playing. In fact, as director I have to use facial gestures, mouth positions, head bobs, and the occasional free hand for cues and cutoffs. However, my solo singing days are long past. Age can do that to you.

    For one, you don't run out of breath when singing mentally (or do you?).


    It wouldn't surprise me if some of my singers did run out of breath. LOL.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    ClergetKubisz, it is a real challenge to play the organ competently (manuals and pedals) and sing excellently at the same time. My degrees are in vocal performance, and I have numerous leading tenor roles (opera and operetta) on my resume, but I struggle to sing with healthy technique while playing the organ.

    The best advice I can give you is to sit tall; take low, relaxed breaths, just as you would if you were only singing; and be ruthless with yourself about avoiding unnecessary pressure and tension in the larynx, tongue, and throat. In my experience, especially for men, tension is what hinders singers the most. It can be difficult to focus on this while playing the organ. The more demanding the organ part, the more difficult it will be to focus on using excellent singing technique.
    Thanked by 1canadash
  • Oh! Why would anyone play the organ while cantoring? When I play at St Basil's chapel at UST for the summer, there is no cantor unless I arrange for one. So, I go to the ambo and sing the psalm a capella in a chant-like manner, usually using a somewhat ornamented Gregorian psalm tone with a simple improvised chant-like responsory for the people. For the Alleluya and verse, I do the same thing, only standing beside the organ. It seems to me that playing the organ and cantoring at the same time would be uncomfortable and undignified, plus liturgically slap-dash. I can see why anyone would have breathing, tonal, diction, and concentration complications while doing this, plus the fact that it's just..... tacky.... or something. When you must be the cantor and the organist at the same mass, be only one at a time. There is much greater dignity and liturgical sense in this.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Either play or sing. Not possible to do the lounge piano act at liturgy.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    I don't think many of us have that option. Pastors require organist and cantor (or choir) at every Mass. If you're the only one there, you do both at the same time.

    I used to try to sing the psalm and Alleluia a cappella until the rector said to me, "We're paying you to play the organ. If you sing a cappella, what are we paying you for?" I need to continue to get paid, so I acquiesced.
    Thanked by 3Spriggo SarahJ Ben
  • What a grievous misfortune it is that one is required to be obedient to such men. Francis put the right tag on this predicament: lounge piano act.

  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,295
    I think TCJ said a while back that he DID get paid extra for singing and playing at the same time!
  • lmassery
    Posts: 404
    I do this every week and the only time it gives me trouble is during a very involved organ hymn - such as lasst uns erfreuen - which I did on Pentecost. Verse 2 went something like this: "O source of uncreated light, the uhhuhhaatabaaaaa Alleluia! Alleluia!
    Thanked by 3canadash JulieColl JDE
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    For me, it's not so much the problem of being able to sing while playing the organ - as being able to play the organ while singing. :S
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood canadash
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    "We're paying you to play the organ. If you sing a cappella, what are we paying you for?"


    You have a lot of self control.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Can anyone honestly watch the video I posted and say "oh what a lounge piano act." ?
    Thanked by 1JDE
  • Yes, someones can.
    Square notes and chant may change the accidents, but not the substance.

    Nice chanting, though (even if rather wooden), but it shouldn't have been done whilst sitting off at an (very cluttered) organ (complete with microphone) and playing the same. There are liturgically (and aesthetically) appropriate places and postures for being a cantor.



    'You have a lot of self control.'

    Yes, indeed! Quite a whole lot!!!
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    IrishTenor is right about my being paid more to be a cantor and play the organ at the same time. That was another parish, however. Pastor was desperate because we had some cantors depart at the same time and there was hardly anyone left. The parish was full of people who wanted to be on committees and be EMHC's but didn't like to help anywhere else.

    The current pastor wants me to get cantors so I don't have to do it myself, but again I'm running into the problem of finding people. I've had three people express interest but it's beginning to be tiring trying to constantly try to get them to do it.

    "My son would like to be one." "Great! Let me see if he's up to it." (crickets)

    "My schedule is too busy. Maybe summer."

    "I only want to sing for funerals." (only wants to sing for pay. Won't join choir because of that.)

    "I'll email you when I can do it." (never does)
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    The Gloria from Mozart's Coronation Mass aka my lounge act, recorded on my HTC One M8 (cell phone), You can assess it from a production standpoint and grouse that the microphone is too close to the organist/chorus tenor/conductor, but then, it's not a performance, is it? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgTtOXR236Y

    A point in fact is that multi-taskers lose some empathy when running on multiple cognitive layers like this, and I'll fully admit to losing my bedside manner when in the throws of making music with a skeleton crew. But I'm also amused at how many people caution against doing something that can only expand your musical skills and your parish's access to great music. Keep on spitting and hissing, folks.
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    The parish was full of people who wanted to be on committees and be EMHC's but didn't like to help anywhere else.


    Are you sure this wasn't the church where I am now? Sounds strongly familiar!
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    The parish was full of people who wanted to be on committees and be EMHC's but didn't like to help anywhere else.



    Are you sure this wasn't the church where I am now? Sounds strongly familiar!

    Let's be honest: it sounds like most parishes...
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,499
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I got the brass ring first time around and threw a strike right in the middle of the clown's mouth! Of course I used my famous Piaget Curveball pitch.

    Can anyone honestly watch the video I posted and say "oh what a lounge piano act." ?

    Not me, Matieux, self-evident lack of the white suit was the dead giveaway.
    And thanks, Mark Husey, for reminding us that, like Fr. Hunwicke, we can be orthodox and still have a great sense of humor without all the rancor and indignation.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I have the same issue of finding cantors. I lost about a third of my choir a few years ago because they couldn't stand the pastor. The same pastor who had grown old and ill in his job and should not have been taken seriously when he happened to be a bit irritable. A new pastor is in place, but the parish still has no money for hiring singers. Some of the old choir members are drifting back - they don't like it at the parish they escaped to, either - but are not sure they want to commit to singing again. I find enough folks to cover the masses, but there are no extras. We limp along as best we can.

    One of the parishioners told me last week about an encounter with one of my choir members. She said, "do they all complain all the time?" I said, "yes, and that's on their good days." LOL.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    At the risk of sounding like a pragmatist, we do what we have to do. I am no longer a "competitive" singer, so to speak, but I have Master's degrees in both piano and voice, and I don't regard what I have to do at Mass as a "Lounge Act," pace Francis. A lounge act would require lounge music, which I certainly don't do in church.

    Which is worse: a cantor-free Mass, or doing something that some seem to regard as beneath their dignity?

    Yes, it's difficult, and I hate microphones, but I sometimes sing and play at the same time when necessary. We do what we have to do -- including put aside pride and ego -- for the sake of the Sacred Liturgy.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    "For the sake of the sacred liturgy", please find SOMEONE to be a cantor! The problem with the one man band (organist, vocalist, cantor and zimbelsterner) is that when the people see it every week, no one steps forward to fill the void, and we digress to the lowest common denominator and the attrocious microphone. I guess this is my beef with utilitarian music also. If we always default to what is the easiest, then we never challenge the people (or ourselves) to participate in the various roles appropriate to the liturgy (cantor, choir, schola, organist, etc.)

    This is not about what is 'beneath OUR diginity', it is about giving God the dignity HE deserves.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I'm having trouble with the notion that a Cantor is required at all.
    Thanked by 2melofluent bkenney27
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    I would like to agree with the majority here, but I have not had the luxury of a cantor other than myself for quite a while. As a result, it is normal for me to act as organist, conductor and cantor in most masses. While I would not suggest this arrangement as ideal, the necessity has made me much less fearful of folks not showing up, or showing up late since I can produce good music all by myself.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Please direct major effort to build and keep choirs.
  • JDE
    Posts: 588
    The people don't see it every week at my church. I do both under exceptional circumstances -- like the summer holiday weekend when none of my cantors were available and I had to sing three Masses in a row from the bench. I expend a lot of effort developing individual talents and my choir(s). Having no cantor isn't for lack of work on my part.

    Giving God the dignity he deserves is more nearly achieved by singing and playing than by an empty ambo and an absence of singing from the people in the pews.

    It's not my preference to do both (indeed, it's far from the ideal), but for the sake of the Sacred Liturgy, I do it when the alternative is a cantor-free Mass, and I make no apologies for it.
  • But! When it is 'necessary', it isn't necessary to play and sing at the same time (unless you are like the unfortunate musician above whose liturgically clueless priest made him do it). If you are in a west gallery, step up to the rail and be a real cantor: the psalm, its responsory, and the Alleluya all are very effective sung a capella. There is really no need for them to be accompanied to begin with. If you are somewhere down front, step to the side of the organ or go to the ambo and be a cantor. Attempting these two roles simultaneously is cheap, shabby, tacky, liturgically slap-dash and ugly. If I were to witness this as an attendee at mass I should think it incredibly stupid to be sitting there listening to the invisible disembodied organist's voice crooning over the PA system. Let him materialise and be an actual cantor when he needs to. The liturgy demands it. Decency demands it. GIRM is clear: a cantor at the ambo, or a choir in choir.

    (Another thought: if your responsorial psalms and Alleluyas really cannot be performed without accompaniment, you are using the Wrong Stuff! Simple chant-like responsories [you can make them up yourself or use the superb ones in the St Igantius 2015 pew missal - which puts all others to shame] and your own ornamented psalm tones for the verses are The Right Thing.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 74
    I go to the ambo and sing the psalm a capella in a chant-like manner, usually using a somewhat ornamented Gregorian psalm tone with a simple improvised chant-like responsory for the people. For the Alleluya and verse, I do the same thing, only standing beside the organ.


    If you are in a west gallery, step up to the rail and be a real cantor: the psalm, its responsory, and the Alleluya all are very effective sung a capella. There is really no need for them to be accompanied to begin with. If you are somewhere down front, step to the side of the organ or go to the ambo and be a cantor.


    MJO has said it twice now, and it's good advice. On numerous occasions I have been in the situation without a cantor, in a parish that typically expects one. I made a quick announcement before Mass that it was just me at the organ and that they were still expected to sing the music that pertains to them (they know which music that is). I sang the psalm from the ambo, unaccompanied and the Alleluia from a spot next to the organ, unaccompanied. I also chanted the Communion proper. I have never heard this parish sing so well as they did on those days -- better than they have ever done with a cantor leading through a microphone!
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    I have also seen situations where the congregation sings better with an unaccompanied cantor singing simple chant-like melodies. This is why I prefer to use the ICEL Mass instead of any other vernacular Mass (when I'm required to use a vernacular Mass setting, we all know that many times this isn't up to us): at least where I am, I have the choir sing it unaccompanied and the congregation simply follows them.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    I have never heard this parish sing so well as they did on those days -- better than they have ever done with a cantor leading through a microphone!


    Very true.

    Once at a parish I worked at the pastor mentioned that he wanted me to get the congregation to sing as they currently hardly did at all. I told him the best way to do that would be to eliminate the microphone, but he refused to let me do that. So for months we used a microphone and got the same response. If it wasn't Holy God or Alleluia, Sing to Jesus, nobody would sing. One day the batteries in the microphone (yes, they used a battery-operated one) died right before Mass and there was no time to change it. The cantor sang without the aid of one and the church boomed with singing.

    I made mention of it, but...

    That's right. I was forced to go back to the microphone.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    For some reason, the musically uninitiated think that nobody will be able to hear the singer without a microphone. For our spring concert, the principal forced me to use a microphone for the students. It didn't do any good at all, except for making announcements, as it didn't really pick up the students. I imagine it's also one of those psychological things: if people see the microphone, they think the sound is louder, or clearer, or that now suddenly they can hear. Kinda like another thread talking about the organ being "too loud:" a forum member mentioned that a lady asked him to play softer, he promised he would but didn't change anything about how he played. The lady thanked him for playing softer the next time she saw him.

    Long story short, microphones are unnecessary for singing. From the standpoint of the cantor at Mass, when the congregation joins in, you should back off anyway and let them sing. Also, for some reason, congregations follow unaccompanied singing better than accompanied: just shows they're following the singer anyway and not paying much attention to the organ. Makes perfect sense, since most people focus on words more than textless sounds anyway (and for some reason people appreciate good singing more than good organ playing; I haven't figured this one out yet).
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    It is easier to sing and play manuals only than to try and play manuals, pedals and sing at the same time. Certain pieces of music become easier to play and sing at the same time. I find that after 12 months I was able to sing Mass of St Francis playing manuals and pedals, through sheer repetition. I still need the music in front of me, but it's there as a reminder more than having to read it.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 966
    I have found an excellent use for choir microphones -- I use them to stop the choir from chattering before Mass. "Mics are live, you better be quiet!" Works like a charm.