"Where Charity and Love Prevail" last verse.
  • EMH
    Posts: 47
    What is your opinion on the the final verse of "Where Charity and Love Prevail"? We're using it this Sunday for the Offertory (OF).

    6. No race or creed can love exclude
    If honored be God's name;
    Our family embraces all
    Whose Father is the same.

    What exactly does this imply? Is there some fishy teaching going on here? I can easily leave it off. On the other hand, I could be overreacting.

    Thank you.
    -Emma
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Ignoring the "race" thing. We should always be racially inclusive.
    Dealing with the creed thing only...

    First two lines COULD be parsed:
    - If we want to honor God's name, we should love even those who have a different creed than us.
    THIS IS TRUE

    But you could also parse the first two lines like:
    we should love people who have a different creed, IF their (other than ours) creed honors God's name.
    (I think this is likely what the author meant, but its hard to tell.)
    THIS IS SKETCHY
    - If our creed is RIGHT (and we're supposed to think it is, that's the whole point of a creed), then no other creed CAN honor God's name, because it would be wrong
    - We should love them all the same, even if their creed does not honor God's name. We love people because we are Christians, not because they are.

    Second two lines has a lot of issues

    - "family" is not a classical way to describe the Church. It sort of reeks of late 19th and early 20th c. progressive "family of man" ideology, especially in this context.
    - In light of the "creed" line in the first half, it seems that "family" is not the Church, because it somehow includes people who believe something other than the church believes. So I'm back to Progressive "family of Man."
    - If not the Church, who is singing this?
    - Does the last line mean all those for whom God is Father in reality (all people) or all those who recognize that God is their Father? Or those who have the same understanding of that Father?


    I think this is a very sketchy text. That is just my opinion, and I'm no expert. But I would be hesitant to use it.
    Thanked by 1EMH
  • EMH
    Posts: 47
    Thank you, Mr. Wood, for the exegesis. The text does seem rather confusing and ambiguous (especially the creed thing).

    20th c. progressive "family of man" ideology


    Forgive my naiveté, but what exactly does this mean?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    progressive, humanist, collectivist, socialist, league of nations... etc.
    Thanked by 2EMH benedictgal
  • EHM,

    Simple: I wouldn't use the verse because it manages to contradict what God Himself has taught.
    Thanked by 1EMH
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    The translation is credited to Omer Westendorf (1916-1997).

    Thanked by 1EMH
  • Chonak,

    Fair enough, but if Bill Chonak writes that Bill Mahrt and Bill Maher are the same person, he's clearly speaking falsehood, and the fact that he's the esteemed administrator of an esteemed discussion group won't change that.
    God bless,

    Chris
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    And if Chuck Garton-Zavesky writes that EMH and EHM are the same person, what does this connote?
    Thanked by 1EMH
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    FYI Chris, Chonak's first name is Richard.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,148
    My point exactly.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,156
    I think Westendorf got some help on that last verse from Will. McGonagall.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,388
    We are commanded by Christ to love our neighbor, that is, to love all people. And we Christians believe that all people, whether they personally believe it or not, are children of one Father. There’s no heterodoxy here. The teaching is very simple. Living it out is not so simple.

    That said, the stanza could be improved. Most importantly, I think a comma needs to be added after “all” since the clause that follows is nonrestrictive. (In other words, we don’t love just those who happen to have the same Father; we love all because all have the same Father.)

    The second issue is the three-syllable “family.” Westendorf’s original text had “brotherhood.” This was changed in various ways, probably beginning sometime in the 1970’s. The Hymnal 1982 and a few hymnals published after it use “common life.” That seems a bit pedestrian to me. What I don’t care for with “fam-i-ly” (and it has nothing to do with an ideological “family of man,” which Westendorf does not use) is that a musical stress falls on both “fam” and “ly.” (Echoes of La Cage aux Folles’ WE ARE FAM-ILL- LEEE?) I might suggest something like:
    Our life in Christ embraces all,
    Whose Father is the same.

    But it's WLP's text. And if I'm correct and there are slight problems with stanza 6, I still would not hesitate to use it.
    Thanked by 1EMH
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    Chris,
    My mention of Westendorf was not related to your previous comment. It was simply a point of information, not any sort of response or counter-argument.

    As for the verse, it doesn't seem to be a clear translation of anything in the original, so a rewrite wouldn't hurt.
    Thanked by 1EMH
  • Richard R.
    Posts: 774
    "... so a rewrite wouldn't hurt."

    If only to remove "fam-i -ly" as a three-syllable word, which is tres awkward to sing. I'd also rather sing "No race nor creed", thanks.
    Thanked by 1EMH
  • EMH
    Posts: 47
    Richard R.,

    Actually, the translation I have is "no race nor creed." I was typing from memory and missed that.

    I'm using it out of OCP's Music Issueand the copyright to the song is indeed from WLP. I can't really change the words without confusing people, so I think I will just magically "run out of time" to do that verse.

    Thanks for all of your help.

    Mr. Giffen, what if I was also the same person as "MEH"? What would that indicate?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    There’s no heterodoxy here.


    I didn't say it was heterodox. I said it was sketchy.
  • Ben,

    I'm sorry. I did know that.

    Richard,

    I'm sorry: I should use a first name instead of a handle. I took your comment to be a kind of counter-argument. I'm glad it wasn't.

    Charles(?) Giffen,

    Dyslexia runs in my family, but clumsy fingers are all my own.

    Cheers, all,

    Chris