There Is Love
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    Does anyone have a concrete, but tactful way of suggesting that the Peter, Paul, and Mary "There Is Love" is not appropriate for a Nuptial Mass? I'm not the Music Director so I'm likely stuck doing it, but I'm going to send a few suggestions to the MD before I talk to the bride directly. (They also have 'I Have Loved You' listed as the psalm.)

    On the surface, it appears to be a ....religious.... song, and I'm aware that the intention is for it to be so; however, upon further inspection, it has a few deeper flaws (not the least of which is that it is still very much centered on the couple.)

    Or... should I pick my battles and just do it since it isn't really my call?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,502
    The bridge section is quite problematic. "Do you believe in something that you've never seen before" is about the weakest possible expression of faith.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Given the type of people who would want this sort of thing, you could point out the weird sexism.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,048
    For people who like that kind of thing, this is the kind of thing they like.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,502
    Personally I prefer An Octopus' Garden for weddings.
  • Considering stuff like "O Promise Me" and "Because," I'd take "The Wedding Song" any day over those.

    But if it really bugs you, I think the best way to get away from using things like that is to have really strong suggestions for alternatives. Since you're not the music director and only get so much say, I think that's a better approach. I would let it go otherwise.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    I solved the whole wedding problem by contracting them out to a local organist who loves to do weddings. I don't have to be tempted to play the theme from Moby Dick as the "dainty" bride processes down the aisle. No more addled mothers of the bride to deal with. No brothers of the groom who partook of a few too many organic compounds. No "you are mine" or "gift of love" - which actually isn't that bad. With someone else playing I can wish Cinderella and Prince Charming happiness - until the annulment, that is. LOL.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,502
    I used to have good luck with this sort of thing by distinguishing "church songs" from "radio songs."
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,502
    Most songs by John Denver are romantic. But not romantic enough.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    I used to have good luck with this sort of thing by distinguishing "church songs" from "radio songs."


    That's a good distinction to make. Many don't know the difference, which makes me wonder if they even go to church, or where.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    Are you the organist at this church or are you subbing?

    If you're not the organist and you're subbing, do you need the money?
    If yes, then PP&M.
    If no, then suggest some colleagues that might play the wedding in your stead.

    If you are the organist, then refer to your job description/contract/working agreement and follow it.

    I make so many demands to do weddings outside of my church that very few people use me. Originally I just tried charging two or three times more than what any other organist around town was charging - I was still being booked every other weekend and left with a pounding headache half of the time. Now I require the repertoire list, and names of the celebrant and any other clerics involved and will only do the wedding if I know it will be celebrated well. If I see the name of a cleric who wears a butterfly chasuble and likes to give a 20 minute reflection on butterflies as part of the introductory rites, I politely decline. I no longer do non-Catholic weddings (it seemed like last year all of the protestant weddings wanted to hire the local Catholic Cathedral organist) unless I know the couple well.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 470
    I used to have good luck with this sort of thing by distinguishing "church songs" from "radio songs."


    In this case, though, it's not that clear cut... this is a bad church song, not simply a radio song. It was, in fact, written for "Peter Yarrow['s wedding] to Mary Beth McCarthy at St Mary's Catholic Church in Willmar MN: ... October 18, 1969."
  • OMG! It's grandfathered in!
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,195
    The words are pretty poetry, but bad philosophy or theology, or both.

    He is now to be among you at the calling of your hearts
    Rest assured this troubadour is acting on His part.
    The union of your spirits, here, has caused Him to remain
    For whenever two or more of you are gathered in His name
    There is Love, there is Love.

    A man shall leave his mother and a woman leave her home
    And they shall travel on to where the two shall be as one.
    As it was in the beginning is now and til the end
    Woman draws her life from man and gives it back again.
    And there is Love, there is Love.

    Well then what's to be the reason for becoming man and wife?
    Is it love that brings you here or love that brings you life?
    And if loving is the answer, then who's the giving for?
    Do you believe in something that you've never seen before?
    Oh there is Love, there is Love.

    Oh the marriage of your spirits here has caused Him to remain
    For whenever two or more of you are gathered in His name
    There is Love, there is Love.



    The song is a confused message.

    It contains expressions such as "union of your spirits" and "marriage of your spirits" which, as far as I know, are not part of Catholic thought. What would they possibly mean? First, the song seems to say that when two or three gather together, there is a union of spirits which causes Christ to become present. But whatever that is, that's not related to marriage. He didn't say, I will be there whenever two fiances are gathered in my name. No, he promised to be there when two or three of his disciples gather. Does this mean that we're having accidental marriages whenever a bunch of us meet for prayer?

    And what about three? He did promise to be present where three are gathered together: can three people marry? This could be an exciting new development!

    No, the presence of Christ among assembled believers is not specifically about marriage. And since the whole song is centered on that idea, it really is not expressing anything that makes sense in a Catholic context.

    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,195
    A perhaps more tactful fallback: "This song was written with a particular guitar accompaniment. That makes the song, basically: it wouldn't be very appealing with organ accompaniment, and you'd need to hire a professional guitarist to do it correctly, and I'd have to approve the performer. I don't think we have time to arrange that."
    Thanked by 1musiclover88
  • can three people marry? This could be an exciting new development!
    Is there an application and a fee to sign up for this? My VISA is...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Well then what's to be the reason for becoming man and wife?
    Is it love that brings you here or love that brings you life?
    And if loving is the answer, then who's the giving for?
    Do you believe in something that you've never seen before?


    If I sing some random questions, is that lyrics to a song?
    If I never answer questions, can I still be really wrong?
    And if questions are what matters, then what is doctrine for?
    Is it possible tradition and the council asked for more?
    This is dumb. Oh, this is dumb.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    Noel, are you using dial-up?
    There must have been line interference
    because we didnt get the VISA number.
    Please resend.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,502
    Please indicate the three digit code and expiration date. Thank you.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,195
    And the name of the third party.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    heh guymans dis maga mine ok
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    Well, rather than cause waves, I decided to write to our Office of Worship, the Director of which is Fr. Jonathan Gaspar for my Archdiocese. He says this falls under bad but "allowable," and that there is call for flexibility with couples in the preparation for marriage. I am not the music director so I am okay not pushing it if there is nothing that the Office of Worship sees as particularly inappropriate for the Mass.

    HOWEVER, what I did immediately correct is the issue of having "I Have Loved You" as the Responsorial Psalm. I went to give them all of the Nuptial Mass texts for the Psalm and then realized their wedding date, April 11, falls during the Octave of Easter and is therefore required to use the Mass of the Day.

    I may need to start a new thread for this, but now I have questions because I have never done a wedding within the Octave.

    There is only one reading assigned. I am assuming this means they are not allowed to proclaim the second reading they have already chosen. Is this correct?

    How does the structure of the Mass change from a typical Nuptial Mass? My understanding is that it it a normal Mass with the Nuptial Blessing inserted. Yes?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,478
    Just simply say that sacred music, not secular music is meant for the Mass.
    You can suggest that the song be sung at their reception.
    Then you might suggest that one of your cantors be hired for the occasion, thus egendering grayefulness in one of your cantors.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    If you're not the music director of the parish, why are you dealing with the selection of readings? Are you the wedding coordinator?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,195
    I have a 1976 copy of the Rite of Marriage; it may not be the latest, but it has the following provisions: (I'll summarize):

    - There may be three readings, the first of them from the Old Testament. (para. 21)
    - If the priest may not use the wedding Mass, one of the readings listed for the rite of marriage should still be chosen, except during the Paschal Triduum or on holy days of obligation. (para. 11) [Does that mean "only one" or "at least one"?]

    ---

    During the Octave, you have the option of including the Easter Sequence. So: Latin or English?


  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I'm not really dealing with the selection of the readings. This whole thing came about because I was helping her select the psalm and realized there was no choice, so I sent her all of the assigned readings. Naturally, she had some questions. I told her to check in with the priest, but answered what I could.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    I think Chonak is referring to paragraph 11 (and not paragraph 21) of the introduction to the Rite of Marriage (the translation of the 1969 [editio typica] Ordo Celebrandi Matrimonium). The use of "should" in the 1976 copy Chonak refers to is puzzling. The Latin text uses "potest" (may) and the ICEL translation in Documents on the Liturgy has "may be chosen" (no. 2979).

    The editio typica altera of the Ordo Celebrandi Matrimonium was promulgated on March 19, 1990. Even though that ritual book has yet to appear in English, the introduction (praenotanda) has been the liturgical law in force since that time. The previous paragraph 11 is now paragraph 34 in the second typical edition, and it reads:
    34. Whenever marriage is celebrated within Mass the ritual Mass "For the Celebration of Marriage" is used; vestments are white or of a festive color. But on the days listed in nos. 1-4 of the table of liturgical days, the Mass of the day is used with its proper readings; the nuptial blessing is given during the Mass and, as circumstances suggest, the proper formulary of the final blessing is used.

    But during the season of Christmas and in Ordinary Time, when a marriage is celebrated within a Sunday Mass in which the parish community participates, the Mass of the Sunday is used.

    The liturgy of the word designed for the celebration of marriage has great impact on catechesis about the sacrament itself and about inculcating marital duties; therefore when the ritual Mass "For the Celebration of Marriage" is not used, one of the readings may be taken from the texts provided here (in nos. 179-222) for the celebration of marriage.

    "one of the readings may be taken" is a translation of "una e lectionibus sumi potest." "Una" means "one," and not "only one" or "at least one."

    And where is "the option of including the Easter Sequence" found? It is not in the 1981 Ordo Lectionum Missae and, as far as I can determine, it is not in the 1974 Graduale Romanum either.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    The Easter Sequence, as I understand it, may be sung on any of the days of the Easter Octave. I'm not sure where the recommendation for this resides, but I'm certain I have seen it somewhere.

    This is rather confusing, but it sounds as though the bride has the option of including a New Testament reading from the Ritual Mass especially considering only one reading from Acts is assigned. Is that what people are getting from this?

    Again, this isn't really my responsibility, but I'd like to understand it (for future reference) and provide as much assistance and information as possible.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    While Easter Saturday is one of the days listed in no. 2 of the table of liturgical days, I have my doubts that many weddings celebrated in the USA during Mass on April 11 will be using the Mass texts and readings assigned for that solemnity (just as I doubt that many evening wedding Masses on that same day will use the Mass texts and readings assigned for the Second Sunday of Easter). I would be happy to be wrong in my estimate, but I don't think I am.

    It seems to me that if someone wants to dispute the Mass texts to be used at the couple's wedding, he or she should take up the issue with the priest who will be presiding at the wedding Mass, not the couple.

    The issue of replacing "I Have Loved You" with a responsorial psalm is another matter.
  • advocatusadvocatus
    Posts: 85
    Here's a bit of music trivia pertinent to this thread: The "Wedding Song" in question was written by Noel Paul Stookey for the wedding of Peter Yarrow at the CATHOLIC Church of St. Mary in Willmar, Minnesota, where I served as Director of Worship and Music straight out of college. My immediate predecessor was...(wait for it)...Fr. Anthony Ruff, pre-OSB. (That wedding occurred well before my time and his.) :-)
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,754
    advocatus... wow. history and legend appear before us!