Saint Joseph Hymn
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 693
    Just in time for March 19...

    I had asked Kathy to write a new hymn to Saint Joseph to commemorate the renovation of our seminary chapel (named for Saint Joseph). She graciously granted permission to post it here. I also wanted a new tune to pair with it, so I wrote a simple CM melody after reading through the text the first time. I haven't had time to write out any harmonies.
    Thanked by 2Kathy BruceL
  • Nice tune. The first several bars are almost identical to Vater unser im himmelreich. I'm sure this is pure coincidence - or, may it be an admiring quote?

    I would make a melodic adjustment or two to the last line and change the A-flat to A-natural at the end of the second poetic line, finishing off there with a G-major chord - this would add both melodic and harmonic interest.
    The phrase 'O guardian...' to the end I would spell the melody thusly:
    G | C G Eb F | G F-Eb D F | G C Eb D C. This would avoid repetitive stops on C.

    At any rate, beautiful work from both Kathy and Earl.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    Music: Echoing MJO somewhat, when one studies really good hymn tunes with four musical phrases, one discovers that often only the final phrase ends on the tonic. Sometimes two phrases end on the tonic (often at the octave), but never three.

    Text: I'm not in favor of hymns that honor saints being addressed to them. Especially when such hymns are bound to be used at the Eucharist, the Church's hymnwriting tradition witnesses to God/Christ/Lord/the persons of the Trinity normally being directly addressed. A new hymn text in Worship IV (873 Saint Joseph, Mary's Faithful Spouse) is also addressed to Saint Joseph, and I was not totaly onboard with that.

    Some less than felicitous expressions:

    Throughout there are too many instances of reversed word order. This may have been acceptable in 1865, but not in 2015.

    st. 5 Saint Joseph is a model for fathers. That exclusive reference would be fine. Changing it to "men" is not; his virtuous life is also a model for women.

    st. 5-6 three instances of "like you" is one or two too many

    st. 6 "hide from worldly fame" Is that a gospel imperative?

    st. 8 "when life at length is through" Actually, this is a more contemporary expression, but it's colloquial

    Throughout the punctuation needs careful editing
  • Some of us like 'reversed word order' and think it, verily, normal. It is a quite ordinary manner of thought and speech - besides being fun and gleeful. It helps, perhaps, to have been reared on Cranmer and Coverdale. I do not think of English of any period as being 'modern' or 'archaic' or 'outdated'. I think of them all as English and feel at liberty to use them on a whim. This obsession with being modern is a very uncomfortable straight jacket.

    I do, though, share in Fr Krisman's concern about actually addressing any being other than the Triune Godhead at mass. Doing so, no matter who it is, is not licit.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    Perhaps in using the vocative I was consciously imitating the classic Te Ioseph. Sigh. So often "experts" have "rules" that contradict accepted examples. Like inversions of word order
    and stress.

    "Men" and "hide from worldly fame": this is a hymn primarily for seminarians. If fame comes their way, OK, but hopefully it is not the worldly kind.

    "Like you": the repetition is deliberate.

    I don't understand why colloquialisms would be inappropriate. Isn't there a hymn in Worship IV that begins "Long ago and far away..."?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    Jackson: Regina caeli, Salve Regina, Ave Maria--all in the vocative.
  • Typically the propers are scriptural, so wouldn't be addressed to saints, except for the Marian feasts that use the Angelic Salutation.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    Sometimes introits are in the first person plural, addressing the Church, exhorting Her to praise. Gaudeamus...

    Regarding the repeat of the tonic, I think Salzburg and In Babilone are usually considered "really good hymn tunes."

    Gloria is more of a Carol tune, with three notes ending on the tonic.

    Nettleton.

    Hyfrydol.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    IN BABILONE, NETTLETON, and HYFRYDOL are examples of AABA hymn tunes, where three of the four musical phrases are identical. (And there are many such tunes.) As to SALZBURG and GLORIA, the first musical phrase is repeated. What I referred to originally were hymn tunes with four different musical phrases. I should have included that important adjective, different.

    Thanks.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 3,845
    Fr.,
    I don't know about other parochial teachers, but one solid aspect that I teach our 2-8 kids focuses upon their ability to visually and aurally distinguish subtle differences between even simple ABA designations. I require them to make a definitive judgment between whether AABA is actually that, or A1, A2, B, A3 and so forth. It seems to make sense they can cognate that as they have to eventually recognize rote acquisition that does contain formal distinctions without disturbing the "earworm" factor.
  • Jackson: Regina caeli, Salve regina, Ave Maria -- all in the vocative.
    And so, indeed, they are; and so, indeed, they are not a part of the mass. They may or may not be sungen as votive antiphons after mass, not during it. And, lest ye toss 'Ave Maria' at me as an offertory antiphon, I hasten to note that, as an offertory antiphon, it is a scriptural quotation which is very apt for given feasts. Understood in that light, it is not addressed to the BVM, but is a recollection of the Gabrielan salutation. Too, ere ye throw at me the mention of the BVM and quite a few others in the Roman canon, do take note that they are remembered: nothing is sought of them. (Another 'and': it seems to me that we have had this discussion before a year or so or more ago.)
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    I had assumed that most hymns which address the saints they honor were written for use in devotions. But quickly perusing Part III (The Proper of the Saints) of Britt's The Hymns of the Breviary and the Missal, it appears that quite a few Office hymns address the saint(s) instead of God.

    The devotional hymns, which filled Catholic hymnals in the USA between the closing decades of the nineteenth century through the mid-twentieth century, have largely fallen into disuse owing to their saccharine and overly sentimental texts. Sure, this or that publisher still includes "On This Day, O Beautiful Mother," and a few other texts like that in its publications. But I've never heard them sung at Mass.

    However, if the Office hymns in Britt (which have or had the status of "liturgical texts") are more and more introduced into the Mass on saints' feast days, will that be a rupture in some immemorial liturgical tradition, to which MJO alludes?
  • True it is (sorry for that reverse word order, father!) that the office hymns often are not content with 'memorialising' the saints, but, as well, invoke their prayers. Perhaps this is one reason among many that hymnody, as such, is really not intrinsic to the mass, but, ritually speaking, is an intrusion into it. I say this as one who loves hymnody and rejoices in its role in Anglican usage, but who at the same time recognises the inescapable reality that it is foreign to the mass of the Roman rite. Considering the hymns to which Fr Krisman alludes, one could only propose that their aptness for the divine office does not equal their aptness for holy mass, at which they are patently inapt. The mass (all of it) is addressed to God alone and is a reciprocal activity of Him and his people. At the mass he comes to us and interacts with us in all his Triune majesty, through the agency of naught but himself. The communion of saints, it is true, is part of this Eucharist, but it in no way effects God's activity in supping with us and communicating grace. God does (he really does!) hear prayers addressed to him that aren't directed through a third party, a saint. I do believe that our bishops have spoken definitively on this matter.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    MJO, I never said I was opposed to reverse word order in hymn texts. I only suggested that IMO there were too many instances of such in the text which is the subject of this discussion.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,258
    office hymns often are not content with 'memorialising' the saints, but, as well, invoke their prayers. Perhaps this is one reason among many that hymnody, as such, is really not intrinsic to the mass, but, ritually speaking, is an intrusion into it.


    That, and their didactic nature.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    Hmm. Propers don't teach?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,258
    Hmm. Propers don't teach?


    Not in the same way.

    I haven't delved into this enough to be on anything other than shaky ground here, but I've been percolating a hypothesis for a while that the difference in Mass texts and music and Office texts and music has to do with, in part, with an idea that Mass is a mystery which we enter into experientially, while the Office has a more didactic function.

    This is even more apparent to me after having spent some time with the office hymns in prepping the Lumen Christi Hymnal (several of which were translated by Pluth, BTW). I was struck by the density of what I might call "educational" content.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    There's didactic and didactic.

    Something that is off-putting to me is what I've come to think of as fake praying. That's not exactly fair, but I'll explain. It's similar to what are putatively "petitions," but are actually meant to be advisory for the congregation. "That all of our parishioners may prayerfully consider mortgaging their houses to pay for new statuary and a parish hall, let us pray to the Lord.."--which is an extreme example, obviously.

    Less extreme examples happen in hymns sometimes. Forgive Us, Lord, As We Forgive is an example. When In Our Music God Is Glorified. Both of those seem too preachy to me. It's not the bossiness of hymns that is the problem. "Beloved, let us love" is directly exhortatory address, but that is fine, precisely because it it isn't coy about it. What I find troubling in the others is the fairly transparent exhortation that is hidden in prayer language and directionality.

    Likewise, the kind of storytelling and lengthy discussion of a feast that happens in office hymns seems ok, because the hymn is totally conscious of what it is doing and up front about it. They seem to say, "Look. We're going to start with a call to prayer in verse 1. Then we're going to weave together a bunch of thoughts about the feast of the day. And then we're going to close with a doxology thanking God for the saint / cathedral/ mystery of the day, and ask that we can be brought to heaven. Everybody ok with that? Ok, here goes."
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen rarty
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 693
    For what it's worth, I never said that I intended on singing the hymn during Mass. As a devotional after Mass, perhaps. Or as a nice alternative to one of the office hymns. I specifically requested a devotional hymn to St. Joseph that was not "saccharine and overly sentimental", which I think Kathy has delivered.

    For the Mass on March 19 we will sing antiphons from the Graduale Romanum, the Lumen Christi Simple Gradual and By Flowing Waters.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 833
    And what about the litany of saints?
    And what about the canon of the Mass which invokes the saints?
    If one looks at the Euch. prayerss on saints days, there are indeed invocations to them, I believe.
    MJO, Iwonder if youvare thinking of Anglican tradition?
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • I am not thinking of Anglican tradition.
    I believe that what I said above is accurate and factual.
    Except, yes, the litany of the saints at the Easter vigil is an exception, and technically, even here, being a part of other rituals, it precedes the mass proper.

    (Lest anyone think otherwise, I am not being the least critical of the intercession of saints, only jealous that God himself gets his unqualified due. I, like all Catholics, invoke their prayers quite often and am blessed in doing so. I am rather certain, though, that doing so within the mass itself has been prohibited by our bishops and has no place at all within any of the mass's ritual texts and rubrics, which address, speak to, only God.)
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    I don't think that a competitive spirit pertains between God and His saints.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    The litany of the saints is used within the Mass at the Easter Vigil, at ordinations, at the blessing of abbots, at the dedication of churches, and at the baptism of infants (the latter using a shortened form). I don't understand how MJO can say the litany at the Easter Vigil "precedes the Mass proper," unless he defines "Mass proper" as the Liturgy of the Eucharist, beginning with the presentation of gifts and preparation of the altar. But the Church does not make such a dichotomy between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

    That said, the litany of the saints is quite different from hymns addressed to saints. It is an invocation of the Holy Trinity and the great cloud of witnesses who have gone before us as we prepare for the consecration which will follow. I think the mention of the saints in the litany is analogous to the intercessory prayers to them within the various eucharistic prayers at Mass.

    I had initially raised the question of using hymns addressed to saints during Mass. I raised it not because I had the answer but rather because I had a sort of intuition that it is not quite proper. One can appeal to an immemorial tradition that such hymns were not used at Mass. But, at the same time, none but a few hymns (and none of them being addressed to saints, as far as I know) were ever included in the Roman Missal during that long period of time. They still aren't, even in the post-Vatican II reformed Missal. But Latin and vernacular hymns are now permitted at Mass in the particular legislation inserted into the GIRM by various episcopal conferences and approved by the Apostolic See. So the matter of using hymns addressed to saints seems to me to be a question with much relevance today.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • In the EF the Litany precedes the Mass.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    The Papal Masses include the Marian antiphons.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    In the EF the Litany precedes the Mass.

    CR, I know that in the Easter Vigil found in the 1962 MR, the heading following the renewal of baptismal promises and the concluding part of the litany of the saints is: DE MISSA SOLEMNI VIGILIAE PASCHALIS. But the rubric following that heading explicitly states that this Mass may not be celebrated without everything that preceded it. (Celebratio solius Missae vigiliae paschalis sine ceremoniis precedentibus interdiciter.)

    If there ever is a “mutual enrichment” of the OF and EF, would this heading perhaps be something that is amended to conform to SC 56?
    SC 56. The two parts which, in a certain sense, go to make up the Mass, namely, the liturgy of the word and the eucharistic liturgy, are so closely connected with each other that they form but one single act of worship.

    The Papal Masses include the Marian antiphons.

    You are correct, Kathy. As others have already stated, the Marian antiphons address the Blessed Mother directly. But does the quite recent use of these antiphons at papal Masses open the gates, as it were, to the use of hymns addressed to saints being used at other Masses?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,660
    Strophic hymns aren't really part of the Church's model for music at the Mass anyway; isn't that so?
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    Chonak, perhaps hymns and all other forms of congregational singing are the "model" or, at least, the "new normal" at Masses celebrated in the vernacular. And, as I have already noted, hymns are now permitted at Mass in the particular legislation inserted into the GIRM by various episcopal conferences (including USCCB) and approved by the Apostolic See. New realities raise new questions.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    If strophic hymns are the model, then we're back to Te Ioseph.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    I really don't understand what is going on here.

    -Office hymns and Marian antiphons are not acceptable because they don't meet a rule that some liturgists came up with last Tuesday.
    -But random heretical verses that don't trip over that rule, or one of the many others that modern liturgists thought of or plan to think of, are fine because of the GIRM's fourth option rule?

    This is beyond the looking glass.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    If strophic hymns are the model, then we're back to Te Ioseph.

    Not really, since the fundamental question I asked is not whether strophic hymns are appropriate at Mass, but whether strophic hymns directly addressed to saints are appropriate at Mass.
    I really don't understand what is going on here.

    QED. You directed your last response toward "some liturgists' rule" or hymns containing "heretical verses" in an attempt to change the subject. Such a response is very much beside the point.

    I am not arguing with you. I'm asking a question about hymns addressed to saints used at Mass. I'm asking if there is a tradition against such. If there is or has been, may that tradition now be broken? If you do not wish to engage those question, fine by me. But perhaps MJO, I, and others do.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,660
    Well, OK. If current law is the guide to show us what the Church's current model is for music at the Mass, we may as well look at the same law to see what criteria apply in the selection of hymns.

    If I remember the GIRM aright, that would mean that the hymn should be suited to the occasion (according to the calendar) or the season, or suited to the particular action underway when the hymn is sung. Is that all? Does the GIRM maintain any principle about whether hymns addressed to saints are unsuitable? I don't recall that being in there anywhere.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,126
    Like you, Chonak, I know of no liturgical law (whether it be in the GIRM or elsewhere) that prohibits hymns addressed to saints being used at Mass. But I am not as prepared to say that there is or there is not a liturgical custom (having the force of law) which prohibits the same.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    Nonsense.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 8,075
    "Joseph Was a Good Man..." Worst St. Joseph hymn ever. You can hear it on YouTube if you must.
  • I'm thinking how supremely ill-judged it would be of me, were I to have an audience with the king who was ardent to share his love and benevolence with me, but foolishly thought it more pleasing and profitable to me to speak to the assembled courtiers while his Majesty sat twiddling his Thumbs. At the mass, I give my all (insofar as my sins don't get in the way) to God, my Father, to his Son from everlasting and that Sonship as in the incarnate and risen Christ, and to the Holy Ghost the Lord and Giver of Life. The communion of saints joins me in this worthship, but we do not chatter amongst ourselves whilst the All Holy is holding court and bestowing his graces out of his own Goodness.

    The eucharistic prayer which is presented as evidence of entreaty to entities other than the Godhead, does not include petitions and invocations of saints. It remembers them and counts them as worthies in our communion of saints, but it does not address them nor ask anything from them. Here are the pertinent portions of the Roman canon (in the language of the Ordinariate) -

    Therefore, most merciful Father, we humbly pray thee...

    United in one communion, we venerate the memory, of the glorious ever-virgin Mary,... of Joseph... of thy Apostles and Martyrs, Peter and Paul... grant that by their merits and prayers we may in all things be defended with the help of thy protection.

    ...even as thou didst vouchsafe to accept the gifts of thy servant Abel the righteous... of Abraham.... and Melchisidech offered...

    To us sinners also, thy servants, who hope in the multitude of thy mercies, vouchsafe to grant some part and fellowship with thy holy Apostles and Martyrs; with John, Stephen, Matthias, Barnabas, Ignatius, Alexander, marcellinus, Peter, Felicitas, Perpetua, Agatha, Lucy, Agnes, Cecilia, Anastasia, and with all thy saints: within whose fellowship, we beseech thee, admit us, not weighing our merit, but granting us forgiveness; through Jesus Christ....

    Even a careless reader could not construe these ritual texts as addressing any other than God himself. True, he is asked to weigh the merits of the mentioned saints, we ask of him that we may be among them, but they are not addressed even obliquely.

    As for litanies at ordinations and such, one could reasonably point out that these occur within the Rite of Ordination, etc., which is itself inserted into the mass.

  • A brief Postscript -
    The mass is about the Triune God, it is about worshiping him and receiving the graces of which he alone is the Fount. This was one of the badly needed lessons of the recent council. It is not a time for private devotions, for saying the rosary and reading prayer books, for beseeching of saints what we should be beseeching from God. We and all the Communion of Saints and the Heavenly Host of Angels adore, worship, praise, and glorify God, and God alone, from whom all other entities have their being. The saints have their merits, which we ask God to consider and to weigh, but even these are the gifts of him from whom cometh every good and perfect gift. None, none, ultimately, have merit but by the grace of God their Creator. (And yes, I will ask for and value the prayers of certain saints ere I sleep tonight.)
  • Certainly within the Byzantine traditions there is no trouble with hymns to the Theotokos within the liturgy (and veneration of the icon of the Theotokos within the liturgy as well, which is actually a more powerful statement given the Eastern view of iconography in worship).

    Our Eucharistic Liturgies rather often invoke the prayers of the faithful of the church militant "oremus... let us pray". I can see no reason that, like in the Litany of Saints, the prayers of the church triumphant, who are also mystically present, can not be invoked. I don't really think any argument to the contrary can stand as an absolute given our understanding of the communion of saints. However, the wisdom or prudence of prayer to any other than the Trinity within the mass would seem to be questionable in any instance not provided for in the liturgical books, or law, or immemorial custom.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 708
    The eucharistic prayer which is presented as evidence of entreaty to entities other than the Godhead, does not include petitions and invocations of saints. It remembers them and counts them as worthies in our communion of saints, but it does not address them nor ask anything from them.



    Genesis 12: 1-3 The Call of Abram
    1The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. 2“I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

    I would suggest that the manner of invocation of the saints, is precisely by remembering them, in the way in which is suggested by the passage in Genesis.

    When we think of the importance in the liturgy of the Church acting as a hierarchically structured body, why would it be important to preserve that structure in things such as the procession of ministers, but not see these things as an expression of the hierarchical structure of the heavenly realities which they are meant to evoke?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • And so we 'bless' Abram and God blesses us for so doing. This is not asking Abram (in the mass) to pray for us. Remembering and invoking, blessing and beseeching, are not synonymous. I remember quite a variety of saints at mass and delight in the assurance of their presence, knowing that their prayers are joined with ours. This is not the same as asking St. Anselm to pray for me during the mass: I assume that Anselm is busy during mass doing what I'm supposed to be doing: worshiping the All Holy.

    It seems to me that the true role of the saints during mass is precisely that they participate in the objectives and graces of the mass just as we do. They are a part of this (worshiping) Communion of Saints. They, too, participate in the Supper of the Lamb. And, they, being sanctified, have (divinely bestowed) merit which we ask God to accept on our behalf. This dynamic, one will note, is the very one assumed and explicity expressed in the Roman canon. All emotion and affect by us, the saints, the Mother of our Lord, the Apostles, the heavenly host, is directed with indeflectable zeal and love towards the Beloved Creator of All.

    I must confess that I do sense a certain fervour on the part of those who cannot even envision God acting through the mass itself without the intercession (powerful and otherwise) of saints. While such devotion is surely not meant to be blasphemous or an affront to God, it does, nonetheless, seem to call into question his omnipotence and his very real desire (even his ability) to act of himself on our behalf. It does call into question the fact that he does act of his own volition on our behalf because he loves us. It comes dangerously close to attributing to creatures the work of the Creator.

    I bind unto myself above and before all else the strong name of the Trinity. There may be helpmates both living and departed in that relationship, but there is naught betwixt it.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • bonniebede
    Posts: 708
    neatly put, MJO.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    MJO,

    It is apparent that you are considering God's glory above all else. And this is laudable.

    However, I do not believe that you are correct , and I believe that you are actually unwittingly doing God a disservice .

    The saints show God's glory through their work on his behalf. Rather than simply doing everything Himself , God chooses human beings to help Him. This is shown in many places in Scripture, most notably in Colossians where St. Paul says that he makes up in his own flesh what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ.

    All of this comes under God's own initiative and power. However it is more complicated than you are making it and more beautiful.

    For God to simply speak and change the world is marvelous. For God to move the hearts of human beings so that they actively participate in his creative action is much more glorious.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    .
  • rarty
    Posts: 56
    The point of Offices and Masses in honor of the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints is, in part, to actually honor them with their due worship. To address the one being honored in a hymn during Mass is not absurd or impious. It may not be the most eloquent way to honor a saint during Mass, but it is not blasphemous, and usually only betrays an abundance of (orthodox) devotion.

    Some evidence in the Latin liturgy of a musical tradition of prayer to the saints during Mass:

    As mentioned above, the Masses of Our Lady very often have proper texts that are addressed to her, and some even explicitly invoke her intercession, e.g. Alleluia verse "Post partum". See also the Tract "Tu es vas electionis" from the Conversion of St. Paul: "Intercede pro nobis ad Deum".

    Masses of the saints often have propers which, in their accommodated sense, are praises directly addressed to the saint, e.g., OF. "Diffusa est", IN. "Loquebar".

    10th-14th century proper Sequences (like in the Sarum Missal) often are, in part, addressed to the saints - much like "Te Ioseph celebret", "Ave maris stella", other office hymns, and the hymn in the OP above.

    And also, the orations of the Mass (esp. the Collect and Super oblata) will very often - necessarily indirectly - ask the intercession of the saints, e.g., "Grant, we pray, Almighty God, that by Saint Joseph's intercession...".
    Thanked by 2bonniebede Kathy
  • Kathy -
    What you say above is quite true and beautiful. It does not sway me, however, in what I (in unison with our bishops) maintain about the saints' role in the mass. Further, although Paul did utter the words you reference, I have great trouble in thinking about them other than that he attributed over much to himself and was in grave error: which is to ask dumbfoundedly: precisely wherein was there anything lacking in the sufferings of Christ? I have all my life thought this a preposterous utterance.

    I'll not comment any more on this topic because it is clear that neither I nor my interlocutors will be 'won over'; and, of course, 'winning', per se, has not been the object. This has been a stimulating and friendly discourse on the subject by all of us who love deeply our most gracious, loving, and omnipotent God and Father. My parting words are only that I wish that I could reference the what, where, and when of our bishops' stating that prayers addressed to the saints during mass were inappropriate and should be discontinued. This was in specific response to the habit in many places of commending the universal prayers (general intercessions) to our Lady's care and concluding them with an Ave.

    I'll say no more on this. It has been a healthy and fruitful converse. Godspeed to all.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 6,660
    Perhaps a distinction can help us to unite things.

    When a hymn to a saint is not germane to a Mass, it can seem out of place. More so if a devotional prayer is said: that becomes, in effect, a little ritual of its own, added arbitrarily and interrupting the rite of Mass.

    On the other hand, if a saint's memorial or feast is being observed, a hymn which addresses the saint is at least suited to the day, so it meets one requirement for use during the Mass.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 693
    [bump]

    A few people have recently contacted me requesting permission to use the hymn and tune found in the original post. Please do. I have confirmed with Kathy and we are pleased to share this for non-profit use. Here is another version formatted to fit on half-legal sized page as in a booklet. The original above is formatted for a full letter size sheet.

    I have decided not to altar the original tune, nor have I written a formal harmonization. I typically just improvise a few simple harmonies under the melody and that seems good enough.

    Happy Feast of St. Joseph!
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • rogue63
    Posts: 356
    Hear hear! This will wake up the schoolchildren at our 8:30 AM school Mass on Monday. Thanks for sharing!
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,572
    Bumping for the feast. Enjoy!
  • This went over very well. Our school invited all fathers to daily mass with their children and the hymn received a positive response. Thank you!
    Thanked by 2Kathy Earl_Grey