Music notation question
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 685
    In the following example the tenor line, I show bottom of page 3, tenors sing -a- and at the top of page 4 we sing -d-, which is spread of about 11 or so notes. What does the little 8 under the tenor staff mean? Is this more for how it is to be played or sung?


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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    It means that the tenor line is an octave lower than treble-clef notation usually is.
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  • Buddy, here's a good explanation from Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef

    You may see other stuff like this, and the "C Clef" isn't uncommon. I always called it the "Cello Clef," but maybe no-one else does.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That's very common-shifting from two to four staves (with the arrows indicating that score expansion) which necessitates the use of the tenor clef. An upward fourth is an easy reward. ;-)
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    With parallel fourths between tenor and alto...

    (For the classical rules of choral composition, there is one particular rule I would assiduously follow for a group of amateur singers, to the point of re-voicing/re-writing - the rule against overlapping. As in: (i) bass on C, tenor on E just above that, moving to (ii) bass on F above that E, tenor on something higher than that - the basses will feel very weird singing above the tenors' E.... That's a fairly common "mistake" in writing that almost invariably does create problems with typical church choirs.)
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    Amateur singers don't do that well, it's true. But it's a "mistake" in writing found in virtually all polyphony.
    Also, what's the issue about the parallel 4ths?
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Also, what's the issue about the parallel 4ths?

    ^^I consider fourths to be consonances, like thirds or sixths. I don't see a problem with parallel fourths.

    Also, what piece is that? It looks like it's published by GIA (judging by the shape of the vocal brace).
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 685
    Also, what piece is that? It looks like it's published by GIA (judging by the shape of the vocal brace).


    This is called Behold the Lamb of God, Beckenhorst Press Inc, 1993. Written by Craig Courtney (ASCAP)

    Behold the Lamb of God
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Buddy, here's a good explanation from Wikipedia:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clef

    You may see other stuff like this, and the "C Clef" isn't uncommon. I always called it the "Cello Clef," but maybe no-one else does.


    Just as the F Clef (aka Bass Clef) show the position of the F below middle C and the G Clef (aka Treble Clef shows the G above Middle C, the C Clef shows the location of middle C. If its on the second line from the top, it's Tenor Clef. Third line from the top is Alto Clef. We trombonists get to use each of them. Trombonists in Salvation Army bands and British Brass bands get to use a Treble Clef transposed for Bb instruments.

  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Don,

    You will also find the 8 on top of the treble clef, which indicates it is to be played an octave higher (used mainly for piccolos), and the 8 under the bass indicating it is to be played an octave (used for Cellos & Double Basses) The Alto Clef is also called Viola clef because Viola music is written in it.
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  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 685
    Now the bigger question is why write it that way? I realize that we are jumping into individual parts but If I can sing the tenor note in two staffs why write the music higher than it's sung in four staffs. None of the other parts are that way. I have sung from 4 staffs before and I don't have a little 8 under my clef. I'm just curious.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    1) Only 'cellists, bassonists, trombonists, and a few other -ists read Tenor clef anymore. (I have actually seen vocal music that had the tenor clef positioned not on the fourth line, but on the third SPACE, that way the lines and spaces read the same as on treble; I have also seen where the treble clef has a bit of the tenor clef super imposed on it around the third SPACE.)

    2) Ledger Lines: tenor parts often extend up to F, G, or even A: this would have too many ledger lines if written in bass clef. So, because of (1), they decided to do this treble clef, octave lower thing, to prevent needing so many ledger lines all the time.

    Don't forget that until fairly recently (1900's) vocal music was usually written in the old 'vocal clefs': Soprano, MezzoSoprano, Alto, Tenor, Baritone (all 'C' clefs) and Bass ('F' clef). NB: also until about 1800, even Bass and treble clef were actually movable: you'd often see the bass clef on the Fifth line, rather than the Fourth, for low-lying Bass parts.

    Take a gander at this score: Madrigal: "Ride la primavera" by Heinrih Schutz: http://petrucci.mus.auth.gr/imglnks/usimg/d/da/IMSLP75074-PMLP150642-Schutz_Ride_la_primavera_Op1_SWV7.pdf

    That score was published in 1890!
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    I have sung from 4 staffs before and I don't have a little 8 under my clef.
    Maybe you've been singing a octave too low all this time ;-)
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    The addition of an 8 to a clef for octave transposition is a relatively recent innovation. Formerly, the G-clef was used for tenor vocal and transposing band instruments, such as euphonium (baritone horns), trombones, bass clarinet and saxophones of all types. Why? Well, the fingering of all saxophones is the same, except for transposition, as is the fingering of all clarinets, and a baritone horn had the same fingering of a trumpet except for sounding down an octave. I played many piccolo parts notated with the treble G-clef (without an 8 above the clef) and it was understood that the sound was an octave higher than written.

    Perhaps the widespread use of G-clef (adorned or unadorned with an 8) is due to the fact that school children (at least) in the U.S. tended to learn to read the treble clef, at least at first, and the difficulties of negotiating the F- and C-clefs were thereby subverted. I have many scores of oratorio & opera scores (all my Schirmer editions with piano reductions) and other choral works where the tenor parts are written with the unadorned G-clef, with it being understood that the tenor part is sung down an octave from what is written. I'm not sure just when I first encountered the "8" as an added feature on clefs ... perhaps it was because of the advent of computerized engraving programs?
  • mahrt
    Posts: 517
    The virtue of the old clef system is that when scanning a full score, you always see middle C on a line, which makes it a little easier to compare the parts quickly.

    The old Tudor Church Music from the 1920s used a curious treble clef to indicate notes an octave lower, the sign was the usual treble clef with a little c nestled into it on the space for middle C. The old Malapiero edition of Monteverdi wrote the tenor parts in a usual treble clef with the assumption that the tenors would know to transpose. This occasionally causes problems.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    [rantmode]
    What gets me perplexed is why so many of those who ardently promote the Doh (C) clef with four-line staves in chant notation have such an apathy towards and aversion to the classical C clef when used in five-liine contemporary notation. Just as the Doh clef can appear on any of several lines, so can the C clef. Or is it the case that chant advocates who can read any Doh clef and transpose at will are just too "something" to give a hoot about the C clef in modern notation?
    [/rantmode]
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 685
    Maybe you've been singing a octave too low all this time ;-)


    I doubt that I have been singing to low, always to high!

    If the little 8 under the tenor clef means to sing lower then I have been singing this piece to high and my -d- quarter note in the first measure is actually down in the bass clef. Or the Tenors and the Basses are on the same note in pitch in the 4th measure. Right?
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  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,150
    Okay, here is the same choral parts (SATB) with the Tenor notated in Bass F clef, rather then the Tenor G(8vb) clef, The pitches in Don9of11's example just above are exactly the same.

    Does that make it clear now?
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    And all these (movable Do clef, movable Fa clef, moveable C, G clef with the 8 above or below, F clef with 8 below (I've never seen it above) are attempts to write music in familiar notation without all the ledger lines. Just learn it and sing it.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Actually, Chuck, it's interesting that you mention the aversion to the C Clef. I had never been taught to read it, and was never really forced to learn...until I learned chant, then I had to read the Do Clef--Chant in the Fa Clef was easier at first, since I already knew Bass Clef. After learning the Do Clef in Chant, the C Clef ceased to be an issue.

    Though it can be a pain in the neck if you're stuck sight reading a figured Bass part that keeps switching from Bass clef (full Basses) to Tenor Clef ('Cellos and organ only) to Soprano Clef (Organ alone) and back again--When Mozart starts sounding like Schoenberg, it usually means that the continuo player is reading in the wrong clef!
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  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Blazhevich Clef Studies. Clef changes every few bars.
    Thanked by 1Jeffrey Quick
  • Also, what's the issue about the parallel 4ths?

    Parallel 4ths are OK as long as the lower of the pair is not the bass voice (for a planing chord, there ought to be a 3rd under the parallel).
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 685
    Okay, here is the same choral parts (SATB) with the Tenor notated in Bass F clef, rather then the Tenor G(8vb) clef, The pitches in Don9of11's example just above are exactly the same.

    Does that make it clear now?


    Yes it does. Thank You.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    What gets me perplexed is why so many of those who ardently promote the Doh (C) clef with four-line staves in chant notation have such an apathy towards and aversion to the classical C clef when used in five-liine contemporary notation


    Because it's "contemporary notation" and doesn't allow them to feel so special and anointed?
  • I don't know many folks yet in the chant world, but those I do have not said anything derogatory about the C clef. I personally love teaching it to students, if only to see them squirm, but I also love the Do clef and the Fa clef.
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    Tenors reading treble clef will sound an octave lower than written. The small 8 beneath is a reminder of that.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,046
    bhcordova: obviously a trombonist. I hate Blazhevich!
    Salieri: re the 4th as consonance: yes, it doesn't beat much; it's "pretty". But contrapuntally, it's a dissonance against the bass, because the root of the interval is above the bass, and there's a gravitational pull felt from the implied 3rd above the bass, that the 4th wants to fall to.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    Co-admin at The Trombone Fourm www.tromboneforum.org