The musical divide and Christian unity
  • I write melodies to the Responsorial Psalms every week, and after Mass my wife and I sing them while I play them on the piano, along with a few hymns. It's kind of a special personal liturgy.

    I was looking ahead to the third week of Lent, and decided I just could not write music to Psalm 19, not with "The Law of the Lord is Perfect" (THE LAW, irreg.) by Joanne Roberts Graham (originally published anon, 1969) already written. This song is iconic in Protestant churches in the US. If you ask any of your Protestant friends if they know this song, I'll bet you they do. It would be like writing a new melody for "Shepherd Me, O God" or something. So we will sing "The Law of the Lord is Perfect" that Sunday after Mass.

    So I went to my OCP accompaniment book (the big huge 5-ring binder, an older revision), and it isn't there. And it's in none of my up-to-date Catholic hymnals. And I asked myself: "Why not? We have "A Mighty Fortress" and "Come, Thou Long Expected Jesus," both written by Protestant reformers. "The Law of the Lord is Perfect" is word-for-word from Psalm 19."

    My wife is taking care of her mother, who suffers from dementia. She didn't like a bookshelf with sewing supplies on it my wife had put in the room. So I moved the bookshelf out and replaced it with an antique pump-organ I had so I could play music for her from time to time. My wife took a video of me playing "The [Lord Hears the] Cry of the Poor" with my mother-in-law listening - actually reading at the time - and put it on her blog she writes for her family to see how mommy is doing. Her sister, a Protestant, called her on the phone and asked her what the beautiful song I was playing was. It's the SAME THING in reverse.

    I mean, what if the music publishers from both worlds were to meet every once in a while and discuss iconic songs crossing the great divide. I would hope that among Church musicians, cries of "popery" and "heresy" should be something out of the distant past, especially with recent calls for more Christian unity. I'd even like to see Maoz Tzur (Rock of ages let our song...) in Catholic Hymnals, though there aren't really many (any?) Sundays where we read from Maccabees.

    I'm not talking about having every new fad song that comes out hopping the borders, but if they've survived a few decades and are well known, and are not heretical, why not? I'm thinking this divide helps keep us all in little "bubble-worlds."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg2Q5ciJoIA
  • it's in none of my up-to-date Catholic hymnals. And I asked myself: "Why not?"

    (originally published anon, 1969)

    There's your answer. No publisher is going to pay money to another publisher to include a song which is not part of that faith tradition's repertoire. Feste Burg? Sure, there's no copyright, and if you take a Burdizzo to the words, you can copyright that and make money.

    I'm all for stealing everyone's good hymns, as long as they receive the same theological scrutiny as (*cough*) hymns already in the Catholic repertoire.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    No publisher is going to pay money to another publisher to include a song which is not part of that faith tradition's repertoire.


    Not even remotely accurate.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • ...which is not part of that faith tradition's repertoire


    But that is my point.

    If you ask my sister-in-law and myself which of our "faith traditions" is more valid, you'll probably get two answers. If you were to ask me (I can't speak for my sister-in-law here) whose baptism is more valid I'd probably have to look it up in some dusty old creed. I might start with the Nicene.

    ...stealing everyone's good hymns...


    What I would like to see is sharing each other's good hymns. Not stealing anyone's.

    ...you can copyright that and make money...


    Are we really reduced to that? I PRAY not. When El Greco painted his impression of the Protestant reformation, it was Christ Driving the Money-Changers out of the temple. You are suggesting they didn't stay out.

    image

    Not even remotely accurate.


    Adam, I hope you are right!
  • Chrism
    Posts: 869
    When El Greco painted his impression of the Protestant reformation, it was Christ Driving the Money-Changers out of the temple.


    Is that true or is that a Protestant myth?

    Here's what the National Gallery of Art website says on the subject:

    In this tempestuous scene, El Greco depicted an angry Christ driving the moneychangers from the Temple. An uncommon theme, it became increasingly popular in the latter half of the sixteenth century, promoted by the Council of Trent as a symbol of the Catholic church's attempt to purify itself after the Protestant Reformation.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • @Chrism No, I don't believe El Greco's counter-reformation art depicted the "Church's attempt to purify itself." I believe that is the Protestant myth. I believe these paintings depict Christ purifying the Church. Look at Saint Peter (See Image Below). He has THE KEYS. Look at his paintings of St. Jerome. In El Greco's paintings, Jerome gave us the Bible. In Latin. If I'm wrong about this I guess I can always beat myself with a rock.

    image

    As in every age there are problems, caused by sin, within the Church. Which doesn't make it not the Church. Christ drove the money-changers out of the temple. He didn't say: "This temple is full of sinners, let's make our own, better temple."

    But a discussion about El Greco here would probably detract from the original "why not" question I asked.

    I mean, why don't our faith traditions share good hymns that would speak to all Christians today?

    If it's money, that's a problem.

    Instead of focusing on money, [Pope Francis] said, we should strive for justice, piety, faith and charity, as well as the gifts of patience and meekness which are the ways of the Lord. Pope Francis concluded with the wish that God will help each one of us to avoid falling into the trap of making money our idol.


    I submit the "music divide" is caused more by mere oversight as both groups live in artificial bubbles.

    If it's either of the above causes, it can (and should) be corrected.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Love the art, SeasonPsalt! I'm trying to do my part with ecumenical hymn-sharing. We use many beautiful hymns from the Anglican Hymnal at our EF Missa Cantata. My motto is if something's good, holy, true and beautiful, chances are it's also catholic.
  • '...if something's good, holy, true and beautiful, chances are it's also Catholic.'

    My sentiments exactly. And not 'chances are' - it is. What contains no error is, ipso facto, Catholic. It is surprising, though, perhaps, it shouldn't be, how much Catholic thought has originated in persons and groups that are not Catholic. Truth is Truth, wherever it originates. One of the most profound treatises ever written on the Magnificat was penned by Martin Luther.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Instead of focusing on money, [Pope Francis] said, we should strive for justice, piety, faith and charity, as well as the gifts of patience and meekness which are the ways of the Lord. Pope Francis concluded with the wish that God will help each one of us to avoid falling into the trap of making money our idol.


    What Pope Francis never seems to grasp, is that we have to work like hell to get the money for all his proposed acts of charity. It doesn't drop from the sky.

    Another priest detached from reality?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Wow, this thread stirred up a lot of topics, from art criticism to greedy for-profit Christian music publishers to Pope Francis criticism...

    But CharlesW, you would certainly not be the first to accuse priests of detachment from reality.

    Look at Leo XIII with Rerum Novarum.

    Or Pius XI with Quadragesimo Anno.

    Or even John Paul II with Centesimus annus.

    But these were all written precisely because you may have a legitimate complaint, if you don't others certainly do.

    If all Christians devoted themselves to being Christian these priests and Popes wouldn't be so detached from reality, no?

    Our reality is twisted because Christians aren't Christian.

    But it still doesn't really explain why "Our God Reigns" (How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him) isn't in our Catholic hymnals...
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    But it still doesn't really explain why "Our God Reigns" (How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him) isn't in our Catholic hymnals...


    That song isn't in most Catholic hymnals because it's in the wrong genre, not the wrong tradition.

    If you look at Spirit and Song from OCP, which is a genre-specific hymnal (P&W Music), I'm pretty sure you'll find it. (And if not that one in particular, a thousand other Protestant Praise Songs of similar style and provenance.)

    Most Catholic hymnals have a large number of hymns of Protestant origin. Some are good, some are bad. I don't know of any hymnal on the market currently that avoids specific hymns for no reason other than their denominational heritage. However many have some constraint on what they determine to be the proper genre(s) for inclusion.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    If all Christians devoted themselves to being Christian these priests and Popes wouldn't be so detached from reality, no?


    Many priests have never done anything else. They haven't worked at secular jobs for income, They haven't supported themselves in years if ever, they have nothing in the way of business education, experience, or on-the-job training, and have little idea of what things actually cost. That is why they are detached from reality. Too many parishes find themselves in financial trouble because of that detachment from reality. There are exceptions, of course, but those exceptions are a minority.

    But it still doesn't really explain why "Our God Reigns" (How lovely on the mountains are the feet of him) isn't in our Catholic hymnals...


    I had never heard of this one so I looked it up on YouTube. It sounded nothing like what I would accept as serious, sacred music worthy of sacred liturgy - assuming that what I heard was the same hymn.
  • That song isn't in most Catholic hymnals because it's in the wrong genre, not the wrong tradition.


    Dagnabbit, I should have known this crowd was that smart... honestly, I was racking my brain for another song like "The Law of the Lord is Perfect," and couldn't come up with one. I thought of dozens this morning. I think I gave up my mind for Lent, but now I can't remember.

    I am familiar with Sprit and Song, I've even purchased a couple digital downloads from it. My wife and I sing "Cry Out for Joy" by Scott Blakesley frequently in our home.

    Spirit and Song wouldn't work well in my Parish, they're an OCP "Heritage Mass" congregation - though more often now "Jubilation Mass" from GIA. That might have something to do with our being in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, and where Chepponis is now. But I am fond of both Mass settings.

    So maybe the divide is not as wide as I first thought, when I discovered "The Law of the Lord is Perfect" was noticably absent from my hymnals.
    I noticed the absence especially since it's an accepted Common Psalm for Ordinary Time. Just add: "Lord, you have the words of everlasting life." as a refrain. Done.

    So all we gotta do is get "The Cry of the Poor" into the Protestant hymnals, eh?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    I have bad associations with "The Cry of the Poor." I remember an old hippie with twanging guitar wheezing it out over a microphone. It was pretty bad. I didn't get close enough to see if he smelled like patchouli. LOL. Still haven't heard "The Law of the Lord..."

    So all we gotta do is get "The Cry of the Poor" into the Protestant hymnals, eh?


    Some of the Protestants have too much taste to like that song, but others would embrace it. They usually have denominational committees that decide hymnal content and the final product is published by the denominational publishing house. In the Catholic Church, there is no denominational publisher, so no committee produced standard content, either.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,791
    My first exposure to OEW was due to a Methodist pastor who was convinced that having music more like that of the Catholics was the wave of the future. Since some of the committee made sure that only the refrain and not the verses got into the hymnal (not the only such instance of sabotage, God bless them) it was always relatively painless to comply.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • they're an OCP "Heritage Mass" congregation - though more often now "Jubilation Mass" from GIA. That might have something to do with our being in the Diocese of Pittsburgh, and where Chepponis is now. But I am fond of both Mass settings.
    Thanks!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    As fond as I am personally of Owen, "Heritage" has had its sunset. (I would add the barb that it had more to offer than Proulx's "Community," but I am aberrant.)
    Gebrauchsmusick is a dead letter now that I'm in my dotage. If it ain't beautiful (for the traditional Masses or otherwise worthy in the contemporary) it ain't being sung in CenCA. Still down with Jernberg out here, a truly sublime, wholly complete setting.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Melo, do you sing Jernberg's Mass often? It's truly transcendent. Thank you so much for mentioning it the other day. Hope Mr. Jernberg keeps writing more things. We're learning his Salve Regina and hope to debut it Sunday. I saw on his website that he will be offering some new choral octavos soon.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Every week, Julie. We started mixing it in last September while "temporarily retiring" dear Chuck Giffen's equally beautiful Missa Ascensionis. (sp?) As Jernberg didn't set an "Amen" we still use Chuck's. I generally don't mark seasons by changing Ordinaries, believing that consistency leads to better participation, so we're going to use it at least to the last of the post-Pentecost festal Sundays. Then I'm thinking JMO's "Isaac Jogues."
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    So all we gotta do is get "The Cry of the Poor" into the Protestant hymnals, eh?


    I work in a protestant church. Please don't.

    And "The Law of the Lord" is NOT a universally protestant song. It's only in 4 hymnals. Most Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc. would be unfamiliar with it. Rightly so, I should say.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    And "The Law of the Lord" is NOT a universally protestant song. It's only in 4 hymnals.

    Actually, Gavin, it's in only one hymnal, the 1990 Trinity Hymnal. The other three references given at hymnary.org (http://www.hymnary.org/text/the_law_of_the_lord_is_perfect_convertin) are for another hymn with the same opening words.

    "The Law of the Lord" is not in more hymnals because hymnal editors know that it is not good music.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen CharlesW
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    @SeasonPsalt, much ecumenical consensus about hymn tunes and texts is built at the annual conferences of the Hymn Society of the United States and Canada. Each annual meeting has five hymn festivals, each festival containing an average of 20 hymns and psalms for congregational singing. Several representatives from most major publishers (Abindgon, Augsburg Fortress, Calvin Institute, Church Publishing, Inc., Concordia, GIA, Hope, Liturgical Press, Morningstar, OCP, Oxford, Selah, Wayne Leupold, Westminster John Knox Press, WLP) attend each year. Many of the participants each year serve on or have served on hymnal editorial committees.

    The 2015 conference will be held at Loyola University, New Orleans, from the evening of Sunday, July 12, until noon on Thursday, July 16.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    (Digression warning)

    @Melofluent: I was just thinking about ordinaries this weekend. We started adding Agnus XVII (Mode V: [Ag]do-[gnus]La-[De]Fa-Sol-Fa-[i]Fa), which is rather easy. And I was questioning the idea of changing ordinaries with the seasons, during this time of Liturgical Reconstruction. That Agnus is used in the Cistercian tradition for Sundays Per Annum, so I was considering using it more often. The Idea of Mass XVII for Sundays of Advent/Lent is practically unknown in most OF circles, so apart from the few chant nerds in the choir who know this, it won't grate on anyone, and we few can 'offer it up'.

    Out of curiosity: what is your usual rotation: one Mass from Advent to Christ the King? From Advent to Lent; Lent to Pentecost? I'd be interested to know.
  • This thread has been a JOY to read! I'm so glad I started it.

    I work in a protestant church. Please don't.


    OK. Fear not, my friend! I honestly don't have that kind of pull.

    "The Law of the Lord" is not in more hymnals because hymnal editors know that it is not good music.


    I've GOT to get a copy of one of these hymnals that only have good music! That sounds AWESOME!

    No, I wouldn't argue it's good music either. But I would say I really like it. I always liked Michael Praetorius better than Mozart, but I'd certainly be willing to admit Mozart wrote better music. And... shhh... I much prefer Carl Philipp Emanuel to his much more famous father. But in a music anthology I'd expect Wolfgang and Johann to be included well before my favs... because of familiarity.

    ...And your answer about the annual conferences of the Hymn Society of the United States and Canada truly does answer my question.

    BTW- I finally remembered the second song I thought I should have found, when I used "Our God Reigns" as an example - I'm actually not really very fond of that song, and I also don't feel it would be appropriate for Liturgy. "As the Deer [Panteth for The Water]" was another song I browsed through my hymnals trying to find.

    I included "The Cry Of The Poor" in this thread merely because my sister-in-law didn't recognize it. "Good" or not, I wan't even attempt to argue. But I really love that song, too.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Salieri (ought we call you Antonio?)-
    I don't have a hard and fast calendar for switching Ordinary settings. Never have in 45 annums as memory serves. MR3 provided us with an every growing repertoire of truly fine new settings, none of which (save for the Ed Bolduc "St. Ann" WLP for "ensemble use") appear in the major house worship books. Luke Mayernick's OCP Mass gets a Melo honorable mention for musical integrity, but doesn't hold any of my candles to Chris Mueller's, JMO's, Royce Nickel's, Chuck Giffen's, Richard Clark's, Mike Olbash's, Patrick O'Shea's, or Paul Jernberg's choral Masses since '10. And now that Jernberg's seems to have set the bar for (eastern) homophony with chant very high, there's little point for OCP to look to revise and make complete Proulx's Oecumenica.
    Since MR3, when we also fulfilled the obligation to use the ICEL setting for a short stint, I've looked for (as mentioned here often) the "Holy Grail" of English Mass settings wherein neither the choir nor the congregation are short-changed in their respective roles. So, as new ones surface here, Cantinova, CCW and elsewhere, I read them, run 'em by the schola if they read well, assess if the congregation might be compelled to engage and then run with it next or not.
    We choose not to do Latin chant settings, though I'm aware it's perfectly licit, desired and mandated to do so within a vernacular OF, because it would not serve the cause of RotR, much discussed of late. After 23 years I have a fair amount of liturgical capital in reserve and in trust with all constituents, but running with a Gregorian setting only, even at the Schola Mass would be pushing a lot of folks' reactionary buttons at a time when our parish life has other, more serious issues to face.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    That might have something to do with our being in the Diocese of Pittsburgh,


    So, you will be at the Colloquium this year, right?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Great article, hitting the nail squarely on the head. My 2 cents worth.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,502
    It's one thing to get together for drinks and laughs and sing-alongs and per diems for a week, and another to responsibly program the Church's liturgical music.

    True about Colloquium too--but that's almost always all good. REAL GOOD.
  • But,... you know... I agree with Marty.

    Our unity, when it comes, should be one of richness, and not reduction.


    Reduction of what?

    This is what I do for a living: I start, repair, and provide emergency service on large UPS (battery backup) systems. By large, I mean they could provide backup to a small city block for the time it takes for a generator to start. The server MusicaSacra is on depends on one, and if it is in a co-location facility they might even depend on one of mine. Depending on your bank I could remove your ability to use an ATM anywhere in the world for a period of time in about 1 second. If you are going through critical surgury, I could turn out your surgeon's lights in the same.

    I used to love my job, I was always the guy on the white horse who saved the day if something went wrong. And actually I still love my job, but now quarterly profit projections and other artifially created requirements for stuff like: "How many revenue generating capacitor upgrades will you perform this month" have dampened my enthusiasm. And I've been doing this for a decade. At 4:00 AM this morning I was called to fix a broken fifteen-year-old unit that made an entire hospital's data center vulnerable to power outages. I still love this part of my job. But tomorrow at 8:00 AM my employer will ask me: "Why didn't you write a report and report your time yet? It's near the end of the month and we need to forecast labor costs." And I started at 4:00 AM, took 45 minutes "lunch" at 2:00 PM, and am just getting home.

    But as I was thinking about this, I realized, in the light of what I've seen in this thread, that many of our Church musicians may suffer from similar issues. This is unacceptable.

    Please, enjoy your music. Enjoy music! Liturgy is liturgy. And must be controlled, (I agree). But honestly, I enjoy music. Almost all music. All musicians should share the joy of enjoying music.

    Is the hymnbook exclusively for the use of liturgy or sacramental practice? If so, we can save some paper and make them a lot thinner. Otherwise, why not include a few songs for sing-alongs? Though personally I'm sick of per diems. Musicians must not travel away from their families that much.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    I don't hate my church job and do it for so little money that I have to be enjoying it. Of course, it helps that I don't need that money. For those dependent on it, that's another issue.

    On the subject of "enjoy your music," I recently had an interesting experience. In talking over lunch with several musicians the subject of listening to music came up. It was interesting that none of us listen to music for enjoyment very often. After the years in school getting the degrees, working with liturgical years where music changes every week, and dealing with what for some are less than ideal employment situations, one thing is clear. Music has become work - just work. Many musicians don't enjoy it any more. It is just work that we do.

    I will add another thing I ran across some years ago. Someone put groups of music and non-music majors in a room and played music for them. With the non-music majors breathing slowed and blood pressures dropped. The same experiment with music majors caused faster breathing and increased blood pressures along with some anxiety.

    After years of study, listening to music in college and dissecting it in theory and other classes, many of us may not be able to listen to it only for enjoyment. We listen to music analytically and critically, looking for every flaw in performance. YMMV, but I find truth in that.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    Is the hymnbook exclusively for the use of liturgy or sacramental practice? If so, we can save some paper and make them a lot thinner.


    Yes they are and yes we could.


    If people want to have sing-alongs, they are free to purchase a song book from any tradition. The Catholic Church (sort of) controls what goes into our pew racks, but they don't have any rules about what we keep on our book shelf.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    And honestly, I don't know what this thread is about.
    Thanked by 2Gavin melofluent
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    And honestly, I don't know what this thread is about.


    It was about something originally, but I don't remember, either.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • And honestly, I don't know what this thread is about.
    It was about something originally, but I don't remember, either.


    I know I said I might have given up something for Lent, earlier, but I can't remember what it was, now.

    But, seriously, Adam... we've got some pretty thick hymn books. They're not all really all hymns for use in liturgy, are they? My Parish uses OCP Breaking Bread. Honestly, I really like the hymnal. I mean, it's really a good one.

    And you've got to excuse me some, I worked today from 4:00 AM to 8:30 PM. My mind, (is that what I gave up for Lent?) isn't as clear as maybe it should be.

    ....Which makes it a great time to post on forums!!!!

    But anyway, good night all!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    But, seriously, Adam... we've got some pretty thick hymn books. They're not all really all hymns for use in liturgy, are they?


    In England (and, to an extant, in the Episcopalian 1940 Hymnal), a hymnal was once considered a sort of generalized songbook of the church. Thus, the English Hymnal and (more so) Hymns Ancient and Modern (and I think the New English Hymnal) contain many songs that are really for use in schools and classrooms, not sacred liturgy.

    Some of the older English-language Catholic hymnals also have specifically non-liturgical songs and hymns in them.

    Interestingly, these still contain fewer pieces of music than many modern hymnals.

    From what I can Gather, modern hymnals are generally thought of as specifically for Worship --- that is, some form of liturgical or para-liturgical celebration. They are stuffed full of material because they seek to be Comprehensive --- to provide so much music that everything anybody needs will be in there and no one will have a reason to buy some other hymnal.

    Some of the songs are clearly for a specific type of devotional --- such as the 14-verse version of "Were You There" that only makes any sense at a Stations of the Cross. But it is not my understanding that publishers put music into their hymnals that they think is inappropriate for liturgy but which they hope gets sung at some other time.

    Rather, many people on this forum (including me) would say that there is actually a problem with hymnals containing lots of stuff that truly isn't appropriate for liturgy, but which the publishers think is actually appropriate.

    Very few people here would be sympathetic to the notion that mainstream Catholic hymnals would be improved by the inclusion of more Protestant Praise Songs. This is maybe not a universally held opinion though. --- I can think of probably 5 to 10 Protestant Praise songs that I think have as much right to be in a Catholic hymnal as music from Taize and Iona.

    Which brings up an interesting point, since Taize and Iona are both Protestant, and both get fair representation in mainstream Catholic hymnals. As do a number of contemporary hymns and songs from Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian/Anglican, and Methodist composers --- all mainline liberal Protestants.

    What you don't get a lot of in mainstream Catholic hymnals is music from the Evangelical Protestants, especially recent music from them. This is has two causes, I think: the genre of the music (Catholics don't do praise and worship music unless they have some specific excuse like Lifeteen or Campus Ministry), and the theological preferences of the people involved (Conservative Catholics and Conservative Protestants are not nearly as similar to each other as Liberal Catholics and Liberal Protestants are).
    Thanked by 2Gavin JulieColl
  • (Conservative Catholics and Conservative Protestants are not nearly as similar...

    Yes, indeed. I am reminded of the era of my life in which I had the honour to serve a large and historic (and 'conservative') Lutheran congregation. They referred to the Lutheran parish across town where the pastor wore a chasuble at Holy Communion as liberal! This, even though their own M. Luther would rather have insisted upon it! Liberal? Conservative? It all depends on confessional context. When I attended their colloquia, workshops, and such, I always (somehow!) managed to meet the 'liberal' ones who sought the intercessions of saints, prayed for the dead, called their pastors 'father', used incense at 'mass' and believed in transubstantiation, reserved (and adored!) the Blessed Sacrament, and........... I even met a few Lutheran monks!......
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,195
    Our separated Protestant brethren would not be better off having "The Cry Of The Poor" in their hymnals. The refrain is rather drab with its long sustained and repeated notes. I'd rather see us give them something more appealing musically.

    The long syllables ("The Lo-----------------------rd he---------------ars") could be made into more of a melodic gesture. It doesn't have to be a full-blown melisma, but . . . something. And perhaps change the text-setting so that the emphasized notes ("Lord"/"hears"/"cry"/"poor") provide some interest. As it stands, that little pattern (me,re,re,do) is itself kind of, well, impoverished and pained -- and that in a psalm that is supposed to be presenting a good-news message about salvation coming from God!

    It's a downer, man.

    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,460
    The local Catholic school in my hometown has a fundraiser every year that involves raffling off a Lincoln Town Car. (Well, they did. I don't know if it is ongoing.)

    One year, in my youth, the sales pitch homily replacement occurred on some Sunday when poverty was the topic of the Gospel, and the song in question here was programmed. The irony was too much for my cohorts in the Youth Choir.

    I will never hear that song without thinking:
    "The Lord hears the roar of the engine... in my Lincoln Town Car."
  • francis
    Posts: 10,754
    I gave up singing hymns for lent. It's the sound of silence.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Very few people here would be sympathetic to the notion that mainstream Catholic hymnals would be improved by the inclusion of more Protestant Praise Songs.


    I see you are right about this, and the people here may indeed be right.

    Finding out about the annual conferences of the Hymn Society of the United States and Canada led me to believe my initial premise, that there is an artificial division between Protestant and Catholic hymnals (at least in the United States) was, in fact, incorrect.

    Yes, I am admitting I was probably wrong...

    ...and I thank you all who had well thought out responses for them.