Using a song I translated for the Preparation of the Gifts, or Offertory
  • I translated a song that's been used by the Church in Germany during the Preparation of the Gifts for nearly half a century.

    I thought I would like to ask our organist, Karen, if she would play and sing it one Sunday.

    So I started researching to find out if she even could use it without approval from the diocese or something, which could put her in the awkward position of telling me: "No," or spending her own time writing letters or whatever it takes to do something like that.

    While I was researching I found this:

    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/3531/offertory-hymn/p1

    and this:

    http://www.canticanova.com/articles/feedback/artei1.htm

    So I thought I might ask you folks here first if it would be a burden to Karen if I request this.
    Or even possible for her to use it during Mass?

    The song is: "Herr, wir bringen in Brot und Wein"

    I put my translation and an arrangement I wrote here:
    http://musescore.com/user/1341026/scores/621896

    though I would be willing to order her an arrangement from Germany if she didn't like mine.

    The text is certainly consistent with what Josef Jungmann, SJ, says in the above CanticaNOVA article.

    The song is easy to find on YouTube, here are a couple examples:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijB5cNFBVas
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F5PT7qFgj2o
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Nicht dort gehend, danke. Vielleicht Anderen?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Welcome to the forum, SeasonPsalt!

    The question of approval for songs or hymns at Mass has been discussed here for a long time.

    According to the relevant document, the General Instruction on the Roman Missal (GIRM), song texts used at Mass (other than the texts of the standard entrance, offertory, or communion chants in the official liturgical books) need to be approved by the bishops' conference.

    In practice, the liturgy committee of the US bishops conference has deferred the task of review to local bishops. They told anyone who asked that if the local bishop approved the hymn, then the bishops committee would consider that sufficient. The effect of that was: your local bishop could approve a hymn for the whole country.

    As it happens, some hymnals have been published in this country with no review of the hymn texts, while some were reviewed and vetted by the relevant diocese.

    Obtaining approval is something that the author or publisher should do. If your diocese has an Office for Worship or Office for Liturgy, contact them to ask how to submit your hymn translation to them for approval.

    If the German hymn text is still under copyright, you need to ask the owner's permission to make a translation. (I know that sounds strange, but I believe that is the law.) So if you don't have that permission from the owner yet, you may need to obtain that before seeking ecclesiastical permission. [If you have a copy of Gotteslob, the copyright holder for this song is probably indicated in there somewhere.] Also, there may be a different copyright holder for the music whom you'd have to ask for permission, since you'll be printing copies of the melody.

    For readers interested in seeing the German hymn score or text, here are some materials I found on the net:
    (1) a partial score posted by the Kõln archdiocese:
    http://gemeinden.erzbistum-koeln.de/st_cornelius_zum_goettlichen_erloeser/_galerien/html/herr_wir_bringen.html
    (2) an image, showing the text:
    http://i.ytimg.com/vi/tfPhPCOdFzA/0.jpg

    The song was written around 1970, and the content could be compared to "Gift of Finest Wheat", or perhaps something by Lucien Deiss.

    I will send a note to your forum "Inbox" with a couple of questions about details in the translation, so keep an eye out for that.

    As a footnote, the blog "Views from the Choir Loft" posted an article a few days ago about an apparent further relaxation of the policy by the bishops' liturgy committee, but it is probably premature to try to rely on that interpretation.

    PS: Getting ecclesiastical approval for your hymn text doesn't mean that your church music director should start using it. He or she has the right to make a judgment call about whether the song is suitable for the parish, based on its text's clarity, ease of singing, and poetic quality, the song's musical style, seasonal appropriateness, and any number of factors. Ecclesiastical approval basically means that the song doesn't contain any heresy, so it's not a seal of approval on the artistic qualities of the song.
  • Welcome to the forum! Sorry I can't help with the question, I come from a different country.
  • Thank you so much for your response. I really appreciate the time you took to not only answer the question but review the translation and let others see the original.

    I actually found the blog post from "Views from the Choir Loft" before posting here, it was one of the things that convinced me to ask questions first, before handing it to our organist, because it looked like there is controversy.

    So my local Office for Worship or Office for Liturgy will get a letter from me first.

    The copyright holder may be Peter Janssens Musik Verlag, it was originally in Gute Nachricht für alle Völker 1970.
    Peter Janssens died 1998, Hans Bernhard Meyer died 2002

    There is a neat discussion about the song here (German):
    http://www.kirche-im-swr.de/?page=manuskripte&sendung=16&archiv&w=2013-04-07

    Here are the words:

    KV Herr, wir bringen in Brot und Wein unsere Welt zu dir,
    du schenkst uns deine Gegenwart im österlichen Mahl.

    1. Groß ist der Herr, wir wollen ihn preisen!
    Sein ist die Erde und was auf ihr lebt.
    Seine Geschenke sind unsere Gaben. KV

    2. Unsere Hände und Becher sind leer,
    mit Brot und Wein füllt sie der Herr,
    denn er ist Gabe und Geber zugleich. KV

    3. Was er uns gibt, das gibt er für alle,
    damit wir es teilen mit allen Menschen.
    So sind wir Gäste an seinem Tisch - KV
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Understand that very few US dioceses are likely to view it as necessary for them to approve an alius aptus cantus, and may be quite puzzled if you insist they must. It's a classic Roman situation of the law positing an obligation that is not felt as much of an obligation in practice (the closest analog in American legal practice would be jaywalking laws in many (but not all) parts of the US - generally, folks in the Anglosphere are freaked out by law being ignored, but Roman legal culture is very different - that doesn't *justify* ignoring the law in Roman practice, but it means a Roman simply wouldn't view that as sufficient to get very energized about correcting the problem - a shrug and what-is-one-to-do is a more likely reaction.)
    Thanked by 1SeasonPsalt
  • I want to thank all you who responded.

    Based on the suggestions from chonak and Liam, here is my plan of action:

    1) Order a copy of the keyboard accompaniment and choral arrangement for Gute Nachricht für alle Völker directly from Peter Janssens Musik Verlag. They are a whopping €2,50 and €2,60 respectively (not including shipping and VAT). If she decides to do it, if she has a legitimately purchased copy (even if it is tucked away in her organ bench) that should satisfy moral and ethical obligations to the copyright holder. If she doesn't like the song or doesn't want to do it, I get to keep the music books.

    2) Step back and take a good look at my translation. In a private message to me chonak pointed out to me at least one place where I was more interpretive and free with my translation (as currently posted) than perhaps I should have been.

    3) Write the Office for Music at the Diocese of Pittsburgh with my translation and the original and find out if they even think their approval is necessary. If they do, ask for it formally.

    4) Ask Karen if she'll do it. Maybe on one of those Sundays where there is a special collection (third envelope or something). She and our Cantor have a small but formidable arsenal of songs they perform if the offertory hymn "runs out" before the collection is complete. That way, she and our Cantor can introduce the song to the English speaking world, rather than confusing the entire congregation with a printed copy of a new unfamiliar song.
  • Don't know if anyone is following this or not, but if anyone is,... Step 1) done.

    And it was more difficult than I thought. I made the order on Peter Janssens Verlag but their site is not set up to use credit cards or add international shipping or EU VAT. They are set up to überweis (bank transfer). When I lived in DE and had a German Bank account I did this all the time. But from a US bank it's about $60 for the transfer.
    So I wrote them and asked if I could send Bargeld (cash) in Euro through the mail, to include the shipping and VAT they didn't invoice. They said that would be fine.

    GOT IT IN THE MAIL TODAY! Photocopies of typewriter typed and handwritten scores set in a music book on A4. REALLY COOL! (See attached pictures).

    Now Step 2).

    I did a pretty good cursory re-look at my translation but not the complete look it deserves.

    Edit:
    Meine Lieder may be purchased on Amazon.de. They DO accept credit cards, shipping and VAT are calculated.
    http://www.amazon.de/Meine-Lieder-Peter-Janssens/dp/3629000606

    Peter Janssens music in the Gotteslob can be viewed here:
    http://www.wadelhardt.eu/Kom/Janssens.php#gfy_228
    1024 x 768 - 317K
    1024 x 768 - 262K
    Thanked by 1bonniebede