Acoustics, organ & piano.

iso

Dear forumers

I write from Curitiba, Brazil. I am Mechanical Engineer, violinist, and researcher on Architectural Acoustics. Church music interest me, as I occasionally play the violin at (or organize) small church concerts with organists, singers and other string instrument musicians.

The piano in a reverberating and (as now centenary American Acoustics expert Leo Beranek said) "brilliant" spaces sounds painfully.
In order to explain why, I am conducting a research on the church acoustics (why not to use the piano) and, with a Physicist, making some measurements. It is not difficult to find physical arguments.

I recently read on this forum two long discussions on the subject piano vs. organ in the church. Reading the opinions of experienced musicians, I collected good pro and contra arguments.

I do not know the U.S. well in order to say this, but it seems to me that the piano is frequently found in rather small Protestant churches. In addition to a small space, I associate it with wooden walls, carpeted floor and upholstered seats. Everything suggesting a low reverberation time particularly in high frequencies.

Another argument: in a Protestant church (as far as I know) one is supposed to listen spoken word in a more ellaborated fashion than in a Catholic church (to which I am used to). In my experience, a Catholic homily is usually shorter and easier than a Lutheran, Presbiterian or Baptist.

And another: Protestant churches are newer and more dynamic in establishing themselves in a new location; therefore, the building does not have an importance comparable to a Catholic church (new Protestant churches in Brazil use a factory, shop or even a garage).

Am I correct?

I would appreciate your opinions and hints.
Merry Christmas.

iso

CharlesW

Even the large Protestant churches here - here is Knoxville, Tennessee - are often carpeted and have low reverberation times. I think of buildings seating more than 1500 as being large. Their Steinway concert grands sound rather flat, and 60+ rank pipe organs are muted, as well. The sound systems are designed to make every word of the sermon intelligible to the congregation. And those sermons are looooong! Some of the area Catholic churches are not much better acoustically. I am fortunate that my Catholic parish is one-half block long, constructed of hard materials, has a high ceiling and is excellent for music.

Adam Wood

Ancillary, but worth mentioning:
Recording studios and movie theatres dominate the thinking of Americans when it comes to acoustic concerns. You will often find people who truly think that the right thing to do acoustically is to carpet buildings and otherwise reduce reverberations. It's maddening.

iso

It seems to me that the Catholic church appeals (much) less to rationality.

Richard Mix

On the contrary, I've played in a lot of small protestant carpeted churches in California, and every one has had an organ of some sort. My experience is that piano is more typical of medium large Catholic churches, many of which don't have organs and some of which don't allow the organ to be played. One very nice resonant edifice nearby has a $99 electric keyboard with piano-like sounds but neither organ nor flute settings! Interesting that this may be backwards from Brazil.

mrcopper

Same is possibly true on the other end of the US: my mother-in-law's lovely church in the 'burbs of Boston has an awful electronic 'thing' and terrible music in a great space.

Salieri

Ancillary, but worth mentioning:
Recording studios and movie theatres dominate the thinking of Americans when it comes to acoustic concerns. You will often find people who truly think that the right thing to do acoustically is TO CARPET buildings and otherwise reduce reverberations. It's maddening.

Yes. Then they have to send everything through mics and speakers and intolerable amplification in order for everyone to 'hear everything', including the celebrant belching at the presiders chair during the readings (yes, it happened). And many people today wonder how anyone attending a performance at the Globe or La Scala could hear anything since Shakespeare and Verdi didn't have microphones. Completely maddening.

ryand

For a lot of music I actually prefer a more reverberating space for the piano, especially if it is solo. When playing with a small jazz group I want the space dead, but solo piano, jazz or classical, is better with some reverb. Not cathedral space with tile floors and stone walls, but something like this.

The reason that I don't think a piano works in a church space has little or nothing to do with the acoustics of the space. More to do with the sonic qualities of the instrument itself and the matter of tradition/history behind the instruments in questions.

Plus the organ just sounds better with actual sacred music than the piano.
Scientific measurements can explain in numbers why this is so. The ear can explain aurally why this is so (assuming, of course, the transfer of sound waves to neurotransmitters is not interrupted by generational white noise about the wrongness of millenia of tradition, turning back the clock, and singing a new church that's stylistically over half a century outdated)

iso

I have the perception that Romantic music was written mostly for the growing music halls which were reverberant because they were warm, but not brilliant, as there used to be lots of velvet. There, I think, a piano sounds well.

vansensei

Iso: (Bem-vindo a nosso forum e um Feliz natal muito tarde a você!) I agree. There, a piano would fit, but an organ is better in church buildings because of A) acoustics and B) I think it can accompany voices better.

I sing in my college's two choirs and for the main one, we sang as part of their Mass. We were accompanied by the piano and it felt very muffled, very localized. We sang with the organ the night before and it accompanied us and the congregation well. The organ just...fits for me when it comes to sacred music. It feels better.

ghmus7

The problem is most churches are built in this country wwith no thought of acoustics, or even if an organ would fit. They 'expert' advice is given by "sound reinforcement" experts who sell expensive sound sytems which are neede when a church is build with terrible acoustics.

ClergetKubisz

Did they have hippies in Brazil during the 60s and 70s? That's what another DM buddy of mine says ruined Catholic music in the US, and that the situation is not the same in other countries. Unfortunately, we are still dealing with politics that began in the 70s and 80s regarding church music; sometimes we are dealing with antagonists, to coin the Dennis Maynard phrase.

cantorconvert

There are many large Protestant churches in the US which are built of wood and stone which are quite resonant and not completely carpeted. They are usually found in older cities and towns, the churches having been built in the 1700-early 1900s. They are usually associated with tradition worship, contain historic pipe organs and have a long history of acoustically produced sound.

The newer, carpeted Protestant churches are usually heavily influenced by contemporary evangelicalism that, with its low church ecclesiology, non-liturgical worship services, and strong desire to be hip, often embraces such modern inventions as rock bands, mechanically amplified sound, projectors and screens vs hymnals, and plush, comfy chairs. Worship in these churches is mostly about a personal, emotional encounter with a loving, friendly God, and much less about the reverence due an omnipotent God by sinful creatures.

Earl_Grey

And many people today wonder how anyone attending a performance at the Globe or La Scala could hear anything since Shakespeare and Verdi didn't have microphones. Completely maddening.

And then there is the Sermon on the Mount!

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