To Glory or not to Glory on All Souls
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    After sending a memo with a "high importance" tag to both music ministry leadership and all clergy early last week, we nonetheless experienced disunity on the part of the clergy in two of our four parishes. The newest vicar insisted upon its singing at a vigil to one of my choir directors. Another waited noticeably in my presence after the Kyrie (Jernberg's NERI, gorgeous!) and I had to mime-prompt him to move to the Collect, which he did after audibly saying into a live mic, "I think this is wrong."
    Doing due diligence, I came home and consulted the USCCB site and other liturgical authorities, and there is ambiguity. However, many citations of the GIRM in a 2008 thread here at MSF gave more weight to nature of the solemnity (essentially speaking, a "funeral Mass of commemoration") over the Ordinary Sunday displacement which would call for the Glory to be sung.
    Did anybody else have to contend or will likely contend in hindsight with clergy who demonstrate that such decisions belong solely to them? To that point, is the Glory a liturgical moment specifically under the provenance of the celebrant's sensibilities?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I generally go into the sacristy 5 minutes before Mass and tell the priest (or Bishop) which Gloria to intone. This avoids any confusion. I think all of our clerics knew there would be no Gloria this Sunday, but one priest did ask me "which Gloria?" when he saw me - which is the same thing he asks me every week - in habitual behavior. He likes me to sing the intonation to him so I sang "let us pray," at him and walked out of the sacristy.
    Thanked by 2BruceL eft94530
  • ClergetKubiszClergetKubisz
    Posts: 1,912
    We received a notice from our Diocesan Office of Worship that there would be no Gloria this weekend. Helps when the Bishop steps in.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Yeah, I don't see much ambiguity. There is no Gloria in the Requiem Mass.
    Thanked by 4ClergetKubisz CHGiffen Ben MatthewRoth
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I did re-consult the Ordo this morning at the office, and for the LA Metro the Mass is clearly delineated as a Mass for the Dead, or as PGA rightly denotes, a Requiem.
    I suppose that the frustration that occurs in these situations simply is a result of a dysfunctional model of communication between clergy and ministry staff.
    1. As MJM practices, so do we all when we are able! But, to a certain point I'm weary of the notion of having to interrupt musical preparations that are ongoing from Sunday to rehearsal to Sunday, just to make sure the CELEBRANT! has been formally acknowledged and informed. (As I said, I sent out a memo early in the prior week.)
    2. Are such communications among collaborative staff to be ignored unless they come from the top down? It's downright insulting most of the time. Because if there are SNAFU's, you can bet your last dollar that at least one cleric will blurt out "Why wasn't I told about this?" Well, Father, you were. You just round-filed the memo with my return address on it.
    End of rant, new week.
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    I emailed Fr. Peter Rocca, the general editor of the Paulist Press Ordo, with this very question back in mid-September, and his reply was short and succinct:

    "Simply put, the Gloria is never sung on All Souls' Day."

    I passed that email onto our parish leadership, and since our diocese uses the Paulist Press Ordo, that settled the matter for us.
    Thanked by 3MatthewRoth Salieri CantioDei
  • nun_34nun_34
    Posts: 66
    Since we had a discrepancy in the Ordos (religious/diocesan) for the Credo I checked with our celebrant, who happens to be the archbishop's vicar. Yes there is the Credo. I didn't check about the Gloria - there was no question there, right? A few minutes before mass the word is passed along: Father says the Bishop says there is a Gloria. Only the Propers from All Souls'. So, Gloria we did.

    As CK noted: Helps when the Bishop steps in.
    (Either way!)
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Elsewhere on the net, someone noticed that in Canada the Gloria was deemed to be *on*, and he observed: well, it is OK to add the Gloria to a Mass for the sake of greater solemnity. That might be enough justification to add the Gloria in some occasions that might normally exclude it.

    So I wouldn't say that someone is provably wrong for singing the Gloria on All Souls Day when on Sunday.

    In our diocese, the director of the office for worship posted the no-Gloria rule on the net, which avoided any uncertainty for the rest of us.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,962
    Chonak, no, it isn't provably wrong, and the GIRM would possibly allow for it due to the solemnity. On the other hand, All Souls Day is like no other day. It is not a feast, it is a commemoration, but not of any saint, "only" the faithful departed. I think since that is the case, celebrating All Souls with greater solemnity means celebrating in the fullness of the Roman Rite (I have in mind tonight's Mass in Madison or for the OF, something like what we expect from the London Oratory), but the Gloria is a sign of festivity underneath solemnity. That does not belong in a Mass for the dead. I suspect the Canadian Ordo simply got it wrong. I don't think a blanket regional prescription that differs from the Universal Ordo can come about from the possibility of adding the Gloria to a Mass, unless it is celebrated as a solemnity on the local calendar, which is not the case here.

    I suspect that the GIRM has in mind occasions which are feast days, but which the General Calendar does not rank as high enough to warrant the Gloria and on occasions that have the presence of deacons, concelebrants, and perhaps the bishop. For instance, FUS opened its school year with Bishop Monforton on the feast of St. Louis IX, who is a saint of the Third Order Franciscans; if I had a say, I would have pushed for both the Gloria and Credo, seeing as it was a more solemn liturgy on a Franciscan feast day to boot.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Andrew_Malton
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Since we strictly follow the Ordo for the southern states, we did exactly as it prescribed. There was no Gloria listed for All Souls so we didn't do one.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    well, it is OK to add the Gloria to a Mass for the sake of greater solemnity.

    Good, then I'll do the Gloria from the Heiligmesse, with full orchestra, on Laetare Sunday this year.
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    For the record, this is what the Canadian Ordo says in a special note: The celebration of All Souls this year must be different from other years. Even though this might be difficult for our culture, efforts must be made to place this celebration within the context of the paschal mystery. The focus of this Sunday's liturgy must remain on Christ, on his death and resurrection; it must not be displaced by undue attention to the faithful departed. We celebrate them today insofar as they participate in the death and rising of Jesus Christ. White vestments are more appropriate today.

    Update: Edited by: National Liturgy Office and also Published by: Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops. 416pp. This is the official 2013-2014 English language sector national Ordo.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    For the record, this is what the Canadian Ordo says in a special note: The celebration of All Souls this year must be different from other years. Even though this might be difficult for our culture, efforts must be made to place this celebration within the context of the paschal mystery. The focus of this Sunday's liturgy must remain on Christ, on his death and resurrection; it must not be displaced by undue attention to the faithful departed. We celebrate them today insofar as they participate in the death and rising of Jesus Christ. White vestments are more appropriate today.


    Who publishes this ordo? A private entity, or your country's conference of bishops?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    That prescription has merit which I suspect, Andrew, underlies the ambiguity that underscores the occasion of the solemnity falling on a Sunday. However, two things of simple common sense seem to be glaringly absent in their reading and take:
    1. The Roman Catholic funeral Mass, under any name, done well, is the single greatest evangelization tool in our belt that can get folks' attention that our Lord's Passion and Death, nor will ours, is just a cake-walk. No matter where one's sensibilities on eschatology, personal or otherwise, are serious and sober reminders now and then that our funeral ritual is ALSO about us praying for our dead 'cause they need us as well as the angels and saints, which is a very good thing. Slack guitar renditions of "Over the Rainbow" and Louie A. croonin' "What a wonderful world" is more in tune with shallow or narrow theology.
    2. If the Canadian bishops want to keep our eyes on the prize, even on All Souls, let them publicly release folks from the subtle obligation of attaching a check to the named prayer intentions that are collected and then placed, afterwards uh, on the altar during November.

    What's next? Losing the sorrowful Psalms?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,159
    Melo, I think that's exactly right. There is something weird about celebrating the Universal Funeral on a Sunday. And one way to unweird it is to treat it more like a regular Sunday. Indeed, at our parish we had the Gloria, the Creed, "For All the Saints", the preface of the Dead, and an imported baritone to render The Trumpet Will Sound, with organ and trumpet, at Communion. Result was a sort of All-Saints-And-Souls joint celebration, and I think exactly what Father, and the Bishops, wanted.

    En effect, c'était magifique mais ce n'était pas la guerre.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
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