Extremely loud singing from a congregant/staffer...
  • There is a young woman at our church who is on the staff and who attends a Mass in which I sing in the choir. She is not in the choir. She has a nice voice and obviously has had some vocal training. When she sings, she belts everything out so loudly that she can often be heard above the choir, and she also has the very annoying habit of holding her notes longer than the choir does during the responses so that there is almost an echo effect. I find it to overall be very annoying and disrespectful.

    I know it's true that there needs to be more participation from the pews, but she seems to be just showboating. Of course I don't know what's in her heart, but I do know I don't like it and neither do others in the choir. Is this something that anyone here has encountered and if so is this something to take to the pastor or is it another "cross to bear"?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    I don't know what's in her heart, but I do know I don't like it

    Breathtaking.
    Thanked by 2Spriggo Gavin
  • Thanks for your contribution. However I'm more interested in knowing what you would do, if anything.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    I would do nothing. And I certainly would not assume that the woman is showboating.

    Whoever said that the song of a liturgical assembly has to have the same precision as that of a choir?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,177
    Get members of your choir to invite urge her to join the choir, and do it charitably, sincerely.
  • She won't join a choir. She has made statements to the effect that she's too good for that. She will sometimes be a one-woman choir when needed, but will not invite others to sing with her at those times.
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    Father, be fair, the "it" surely referred to belting more loudly than an entire choir and holding out notes longer than anyone else, not to what's in her heart.

    Lacrimosa, I don't think you can do much beyond pray.
    I have had such people in congregations and choirs, and in casts of shows, and they are very difficult to change. (In professional theater, at least an on-top-of-things stage manager or music director can give notes....)
    The music director might be able to speak to her, and even that is doubtful.
    You as a choir member can only "offer it up" as my Grandma used to say.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • she also has the very annoying habit of holding her notes longer than the choir does during the responses so that there is almost an echo effect.

    This occasionally happens at Masses where I act as cantor/psalmist. Whenever it happens—such as during the Kyrie and Responsorial Psalm—I simply cut them off, i.e., I step on their echo and lead as if they were singing with everyone else.

    Not imputing motives on such souls, just moving things along.
  • If it's only bothering you and the choir, and it's not bothering most of the people in the pews, I wouldn't do anything about it.

    I get your frustration, though; at one of my parishes, a priest with no sense of musical timing leaves his mic on and sings the hymns, but with the wrong timing. Last weekend at Spanish Mass, we did "Pan de Vida," with its long gaps between lines. I, uh, will need to gently persuade him to turn his mic off next time we do that one.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • LOL. Now I understand the "breathtaking" comment, which I thought was rude and was meant to make fun of me. NO, I did not mean I did not like her heart. The "it" was referring to her actions. My fault for not being more clear.

    This thread might seem nitpicky, but it's been going on so long and is somewhat discouraging, especially since this person is on the staff and our pastor could have a word with her about it. I am not the only one who notices it and who is irritated by it. Anyway, I've had about enough of it and am considering leaving that choir. I can be in another choir at another Mass where I will rarely hear her contributions.
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    Father, be fair, the "it" surely referred to belting more loudly than an entire choir and holding out notes longer than anyone else, not to what's in her heart.

    Sorry to have to disagree with you, G. The OP may have intended the reading you give, but the rules for antecedents in English are quite clear, and the antecedent of the "it" in question is "what's in her heart."
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • God is not alone in knowing what is in her heart. If, that is, it is true that she has made the boastful and callous statements attributed to her. Such proudful attitudes and denigrance of others from anyone has no place at liturgy. One of the roles of a choir and organist is to lead the congregation. Members of the congregation are not entitled to make such audible, disruptive, spectacles of themselves, and doing so does not constitute worship, but vain display. A discussion of this serious matter with the pastor is in order, as is, as politely or impolitely as required, letting her know that she is an out of order show off. And, while it is true that the song of the congregation is not expected to rise to the precision and artistry of the choir, it nonetheless is expected to follow the choir, not deliberately upstage it. Everyone at mass, whether priest, acolyte, chorister, lector, congregant or whatever exercises his and her role with diligence and due humility, not boastfully nor usurping the role of others and calling attention to one's self.
  • I know it's hard to ignore, as is the loud talking after Mass while we are singing the Salve Regina. But we work to ignore it and rather focus on making our own offering of music the best we can make it.

    How would you want it handled if you were in the position of the lady in question? Do that.

    Once, I was that overly-zealous singer in the congregation. At the time, my son was 9 or 10 and loved to sing in church. But he sang so loudly and so off-key, and, not wanting to squelch my son's enthusiasm for singing praises to the Lord (don't we have so much the opposite problem?), I tried to drown him out with my own loud singing. One Sunday, the man who always sat in front of our family turned to me and said, "Wow, I sure can hear you sing!" I talked with my son after that and we both toned it down--no problem henceforth.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,965
    Trust me, you don't want her in the choir. Personal experience with aging divas coming. She will show up late, carrying her annotated scores in her arm with all the corrections and interpretations you as director SHOULD do if you only had the experience and training. Then there will be the piece that she wants to sing solo instead of with the choir, and it will eventually be more solos than you want to program. There is something about diva sopranos that makes them hold on to notes at the end of phrases more tightly than Ebenezer Scrooge clutching gold coins at Christmas. It's her note, and by gawd, you are not taking it away from her. Never mind that the choir is already into the next phrase. Been there, done all of that.

    I would much prefer hearing the young girl with Downs who sings everything a bit off-key and too loudly at one of the non-choir masses. At least her heart is in the right place even if her voice isn't.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    My sympathies, lacrimosa. We had a similar situation with a young fellow in the congregation. When he first appeared one Sunday he was sitting near the front of the chapel and was singing Credo I with such vigor and volume the schola in the back of the chapel all looked at each other in surprise.

    Since we're very short of males in our school, I approached him after Mass and asked if he'd like to join us, and he immediately agreed. We have had to clip his wings a considerable bit since he sings the few things he knows with considerable gusto, but he is, thankfully, a very cooperative soul. We work with him after Mass every week, and with much practice on his part, he's now able to sing the Introit and Communion antiphons and the ordinary. He requires a lot of attention, but he has learned to sing quietly, and we keep him stationed between two strong schola members. Sometimes my husband must cut him mid-phrase since he has pitch problems, but he's okay with that, and he's improving all the time, and we're very proud of our little fledgling.

    It was tough for him at first since he wasn't used to being muzzled. I give him lots of credit for having the grace to accept direction and being willing to learn. With continued effort, he will soon be a very useful addition to our schola. We really believe that God dropped him into our path, and it's our obligation to do what we can to bring him along, since he has a very willing heart, God bless him.
  • Julie -
    How touching!
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I'm glad it's working out, but I don't think I'll ever ask anyone to join the choir on the spur of the moment like that again. (My bad.) There were times I regretted opening my big mouth, believe me, but thankfully, he's humble enough to accept correction and has natural talent, and that makes all the difference.
  • I like Aristotle's approach.
    The singer in question might be clueless, might be showing off/correcting the choir, some combo of those, or anything in between. Her motives are less important than the fact that this habit has become a needless cause of distraction, and might be tactfully remedied.

    For you, lacrymosa, I sympathize, as I've dealt with several such loud over-holders.
    If I may suggest the following:
    1) find a good time to talk to your choir director about this situation, which you find distracting
    2) the choir might overhold endings when possible to mitigate against the distraction
    3) the choir might underhold endings when possible, so the singer's over-holding is made more obvious to her and everyone around her. I would recommend using the final/ recessional hymn for this, or another piece that's outside of mass, if possible, as this idea might solve a distraction by highlighting it...
    4) if the subtle things don't work, hopefully there is someone she likes and tespects that can point out the problem

    Hope that's helpful.

    A last thought- sometimes it's not possible to fix these distractions, and offering it up is the only recourse you have. You can remind yourself that the people's prayers are owned by choir and the people. And as long as you're doing what you're supposed to, be at peace and trust that your effort is delightful to God.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • She won't join a choir. She has made statements to the effect that she's too good for that.


    And that says it all. A local church has a music professor who reduced a DM to tears with criticism from the pews. But will not participate.

    [an increasing number of posts are coming from choir and congregation members here, I have noticed. I think that this is great, and shows that a glowing level of discontent from non-professionals is popping up from them and proves the hard work of Jeffrey T and Arlene and others is paying off.]
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    How about encouraging the congregation to out-sing her?

    I can't imagine a church musician whose complaint is "My congregation sings too loudly!" Except here on this forum, of course.
  • This past week, the priest drowned out the cantor, choir, and congregation. Wonder what that music director is facing right now...
  • How about encouraging the congregation to out-sing her?


    Great idea. How would you do it?

    Posters? Banners? Flashing lights?

    A ring of fire around her pew?

    A whispering campaign at the door?

    An article in the diocesan paper?
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,791
    May one also complain to the MD about singers in the pews who don't sing at all, are too soft, out of tune, mispronounce, or who breathe at the wrong places? Two parables leap to mind. One is Brother Massé reproving and sending away the angel for knocking too loudly (Saint François, Scene 4, 7'20"; it's also fun to watch Dawn Upshaw rehearsing at 7'15" of this documentary) and the other of course is Emily Dickenson's poem.

    The elocution "has made statements to the effect that" suggests that the listener might have preconceptions of what they expected to hear, and that it might be in order to get things from the horse's mouth, so to speak.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    I hope this behavior (loud) is not contagious to other readers.

    This past weekend I endured two Masses getting "special treatment",
    an amplifier-speaker placed outside sanctuary in front of ambo
    coincidentally facing the cantor-choir-organ-console.
    The device was set for ear-ringing levels and active during a long homily.
    The beginning used a wire-less hand held mic (sometimes went out of range).
    The end used a wire-d child/toy guitar to accompany the "soloist".

    During the "choir mass" the members even got to sing along ...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM2yO22rSE4

    After the spoken creed and intercessions,
    the parish dedication anniversary was recalled by the choir singing ...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0GlKrbW1Ks
    Thanked by 2Richard Mix CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Being the amiable, amicable and melo sorta guy that I be (I suppose that should be in purple or red,) I agreed to play bass for the diocesan Youth Day Congress Mass, led and directed by our Youth Minister, whom I greatly respect as a minister.This was yesterday afternoon, so I had to DVR the balance of the Raiders' incredible loss to San Diego, darn you MACW!
    Anyhoo, one thing I noticed, particularly during Communion, not one kid or adult (as I seriously scanned the 1000 faces in the auditorium) joined in the singing of "Song of the Body of Christ." (What else is there to do for me in a tune that basically has two chords?) I believe the participation level was similar for the rest of the Mass, including the serviceable "St. Ann Mass" of Bolduc.
    Mind ya, if I ask the primary kids at parochial school K-3 to sing SOTBOC, they'll burn the house down with their cherubic voices, as they will do with Webbe's AVE REGINA COELORUM this Saturday night for the Fatima Rosary. (I'll include the 2nd grade YouTube link.)
    But we have to cease giving a rip that each and every tune we choose is appropriate for every person in the nave of a church. Just program appropriately. If Ms. Diva belts out "City of God," well program "O God, beyond all praising" next week and let her hang on the D with pulchritude!
    I, HAVING NOT BEEN SWORN OR ORDAINED BY ANY CREDIBLE AUTHORITY, BUT INTUITIVELY ENDORSED BY THE SPIRIT OF THE WORLD'S MOST INTERESTING MAN, PR. WM. MAHRT, HEREBY GRANT A UNIVERSAL AND PERVASIVE INDULT TO PROGRAMMERS OF LITURGICAL, PASTORAL AND/OR SACRED MUSIC, TO THOROUGHLY AND WITHOUT REPROACH IGNORE WHATEVER THE HECK SOME OTHER "EXPERT" OR COMPLAINER DEEMS AS ESSENTIAL TO F.C.A.P., aka "Full, conscious, active particpation." ANYONE OCCUPYING SPACE WITHIN THE SACRED CONFINES OF A CHURCH DURING HOLY MASS (OR OTHER LITURGIES) IS PRESUMED TO HAVE PARTICIPATED THROUGH THE MERE ACT OF BREATHING AND REMAINING ALIVE. ALL SUCH MINISTERS OF MUSIC ARE THUS RELIEVED OF THIS CONCERN.
    Just thank me and move on.
    Thanked by 3Wendi Jahaza Jenny
  • Lacrimosa, if the staff member is a secretary, tread carefully. Just sayin'.
  • Thank you, moving....
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I forgot the link. My youngest grandchild's in this. Can you pick the kid?

    http://youtu.be/6W47hyZQXjU
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    ANYONE OCCUPYING SPACE WITHIN THE SACRED CONFINES OF A CHURCH DURING HOLY MASS (OR OTHER LITURGIES) IS PRESUMED TO HAVE PARTICIPATED THROUGH THE MERE ACT OF BREATHING AND REMAINING ALIVE. ALL SUCH MINISTERS OF MUSIC ARE THUS RELIEVED OF THIS CONCERN.


    2nd excerpt from posts this week which I believe ought to be included in Canon Law.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Way to go, Melo! What an awesome bunch of kiddos! Is he the little cherub in the middle of the first row?
    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    P.S. As a little aside, while I was looking at that video, this Ave Regina Caelorum by Phillip Stopford popped up. Quite spectacular, I think. Score is here.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ShyB_0HaVA
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Thanks, Julie! That's my former teacher's current group.
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    I once had an extreme case of this at a parish I worked at... the congregant, PERSON X, attended the early morning Mass where congregational singing was lower than the other Masses. PERSON X would sing the hymns so loudly and off-tempo that I could instantly tell PERSON X was at Mass when the Processional hymn began. I decided to do nothing about it (it was the early Mass... if it was the Choral Mass I probably would have found a pastoral way to handle it) despite the fact that sometimes PERSON X would be behind on hymns... even with a strong organ trying to lead PERSON X, sometimes PERSON X would have 2 or 3 words to finish after the organ (and other congregants) had finished the hymn.

    About 4 months after PERSON X joined the parish we had a pastoral change. The new pastor's first Sunday PERSON X was there at the early Mass. After the processional hymn ended PERSON X still had almost an entire line to belt out... The organ and rest of congregants stopped and PERSON X kept singing. The priest shouted "STOP! WE'RE DONE SINGING NOW! Good morning! Let us begin in the name of the Father.."

    PERSON X stopped attending Mass at that parish.

    As did a significant portion of the congregation.
    Thanked by 2Gavin ZacPB189
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    The priest shouted "STOP! WE'RE DONE SINGING NOW! Good morning! Let us begin in the name of the Father.."

    More evidence that AmChurch is the harbor for all who think "It's my play and my stage, the rest of you are bit players." That gets worse when a person who is ordained who mistakes the alter Christus privilege and burden as an excuse to display egoism.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    What an awesome bunch of kiddos! Is he the little cherub in the middle of the first row?

    Close. Mine is the little squirt Azorean to the blond boy's left side. He's already an opera star. After music class he got busted for misbehaving in line on the way back to his classroom. So he must have a significant portion of my DNA!
  • G
    Posts: 1,397
    STOP! WE'RE DONE SINGING


    Now THAT'S "breathtaking."

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,392
    More evidence that AmChurch is the harbor for all who think "It's my play and my stage, the rest of you are bit players."

    Surely, not "for all." There are such harbors in faraway lands as well.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Oh my goodness, Melo. I was looking for someone Scots-Irish because of your last name, I guess, but your little guy is singing his heart out, and that's not easy stuff. He's a Benjamino Gigli in the making. This just made my day.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,195
    It must be hard for pastors to deal with such cases tactfully.

    We may need an intervention by our pastor to deal with some odd behavior too. After the Sunday homily, a gentleman called out to the priest and asked him to tell us a little about himself and his background. Apparently the gentleman didn't know that the priest had been assisting at our church for a year or more already. The priest teased him: "Where have *you* been?"

    The guy's made similar requests in the past too, usually to add his own intentions at the universal prayer.

    As one choir member put it later, all of a sudden things became very low-church. :-)

    I wanted to say, "Excuse me, sir. This is New England."
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    At the same church I mentioned above, we had a gentleman who would sometimes - in a very deep voice - add an audible "amen" after the priest finished the homily - as though to add his ascent and approval to the homily. The priest dealt with that problem the same way he dealt with the singer.
  • Everyone in the church heard this guy do this. Everyone in the church heard the singer.

    I wonder if the priest may have done the right thing, both times.

    Public actions that challenge what is going on have to be dealt with. Though you state that people left after this, this too, may have been a good thing.

    Toxic parishes exist and need public cleaning if they expect to recover.

    I bet the bishop warned the new guy about these two and told him to deal with it swiftly and publicly.
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    How are saying "Amen" at the end of a homily or singing loud and off tempo "public actions that challenge what is going on"? Or maybe I've misunderstood what you meant.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • Lacrimosa,

    I haven't seen anyone make this suggestion yet, but I may have missed something.


    Consider (seriously!) asking this person if she is aware of what she is doing, and the impression it is making. I sing when we're away from home (which isn't often), if I know the music and won't - knowing it - make my stomach turn. I don't intentionally out-sing choir, surrounding congregants, cantor with microphone etc, but sometimes I'm the loudest person in my section of pew. I quickly become aware of the effect, but I'm still not making a show. (Mind you, I try to make sure that I'm singing in-time with the musicians, although this isn't always easy.)

    Chris
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • When there are people in the parish who "do things" during Mass that are disruptive - as in the case of these two, the incoming guy may be warned about this in advance to give him a heads up.

    Let's face it everyone in the building knows that one person is singing out of step to everyone...and that this guy is saying AMEN.

    Do you permit it to go on, like one person clapping after the sermon or anthem, and then everybody starts doing it?

    Don't assume that the priest was being insensitive as the opposite may be the case. It bothered you so much that you posted on a forum that is read internationally...if he knew what was going on, responding publicly to this situation may be a way of establishing control that had been missing in the prior administration.

    Consider (seriously!) asking this person if she is aware of what she is doing, and the impression it is making.
    Is excellent advice!

    But I'd ask the pastor first for his take on it. He may be the better person to do this - or may already have a plan in place.



  • In those other two examples, I'd just outright ask the person why they do it. "Why do you always say "Amen" at the end of the homily?"

    The person will respond with some variation of one of two ways: "It's an old habit from when I grew up Baptist; in the Baptist church, if you DON'T give an affirmation, it means you didn't like the sermon or don't agree with it."

    Or

    "This stupid priest seems to think he's a Baptist preacher, preaching for over 15 minutes as though I have nowhere else to be. If he's going to act like one, I'll respond like I'm in a Baptist church."

    And you'll have your answer as to how to proceed.
    Thanked by 2chonak Jenny
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,698
    I think in both cases, talking to the people privately after Mass is better than shouting from the sanctuary.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen CharlesW Gavin
  • The man saying "Amen" after the homily reminds me of someone in my parish. He has a pretty deep, loud voice, so it's easy to hear throughout the church, and oftentimes he says the prayers with the priest (e.g. "deliver us, Lord..." after the Our Father, some of the prayers before the consecration). It's so distracting because everyone can hear him. To make matters worse, sometimes he just starts talking to someone at normal volume during Mass (last time I sat near him, he turned around and talked at normal volume to the family sitting behind him through the entire closing hymn). It's very annoying, but he's getting older, so I try to give him the benefit of the doubt that he has a little bit of dementia or something. Not much you can do sometimes.
  • I contacted my pastor about it by email. He said "let it go."

    I don't know if I should follow up with him or not. I think it's something that should be fixed and it could be done so very easily. I wonder if I should just work up the courage and tell her directly.
  • After a followup he said "there is a time to be silent" so...I think I will silently find a different choir to sing in. Her "contribution" is like fingernails on a blackboard to me.