The new system they are now using is designed more along the lines of the Virtus system in that it not only covers the training for child abuse, but covers general abuse policies. I asked a similar question about the elderly and lack of computer/internet and was told that each Parish would be providing a computer workspace for the training to be completed. As with any new "requirement" for volunteers, there are going to be several members who opt out of their commitment when they are "required" to do something to continue their service. It does also have implications for recruitment and will deter a few qualified candidates because of fear. It is worth noting that at least the background check fee is picked up by the requesting organization and not the volunteer any longer.

Speaking from previous experience with the program, there were several who could no longer participate because of false allegations from decade(s) old events. My personal favorite however is when one choir member was "red-flagged" and I was told I must remove this person from the choir immediately. I asked who the person was so that I could remove them, and was told that I could not know their name due to privacy restrictions. How I was supposed to remove a person without knowing who that person was still eludes me to this day.

Preventing litigation is the eighth holy sacrament of the Church.

In practical terms, if there are going to be minors involved in a music program, this really has to be done, and not just for legal reasons but for safety.

You should just check with your administrator of your parish to see what your requirements are.

CharlesW, you are assuming that this is only a clergy problem. It is not. It happens in choirs.

I had to go through the Protecting Our Children(TM) program for the Diocese here:

It was a waste of time, the Parish Secretary gets all of your information to do a CORI, and then you waste 20 minutes of your life watching a DVD that doesn't tell you anything -- I think I new more about child abuse before watching the DVD than after: "If Susie shows up to class during January with no coat and seems dirty, call the State Social Services Dept., because it might be a case of abuse or neglect" - not a single thing about what I can or cannot do to children. And I've had to do this twice already as the Diocese requires it to be done every three years, and am, I'm sure, due for another.

When this happened I actually asked about whether or not the whole choir was required to do this, I was told "No", and that according to the Diocese only those who are employed (Pastors, Secretaries, Organist, Janitor) or volunteers that have direct contact with children (Catechists) were required to do this - the Pierogi Ladies were exempt, as were the choir members.

*On soap-box*

The real problem with this program is what they make the CCD teachers teach their children. The first grade teacher was repulsed and almost resigned because of the terribly graphic nature of what she was required to tell the children, the DRE described it as 'pornographic', and several parents complained when they heard their children tell them what they were taught, so the DRE and Pastor talked to the Diocese, and the Diocesan Child Abuse guru actually got mad because the parents wanted to protect their children from what they considered to be 'filth'. How dare parents not bow down to the authority of the state (which is ultimately where this comes from) when parenting their children!

*Off soap-box.*

20 minute video? Oh all of our new choir members have to go through a 3 hour presentation and then do a 45 minute renewal each year.

One of the issue standing in the way of my son being hired as organist when he was 13 was that "not all of the choir members are Virtus-trained"--mostly people in their late 80s and early 90s. Thankfully, we had a sensible priest then who overruled the diocese on this and my son has been playing the organ (unmolested) for the past five years. This same priest pulled the plug on the proposed Virtus teaching in PRE after I wrote him an essay on what is wrong with it and that no way on God's earth would I let my children get near it.

Virtus is worse than a joke; it's dangerous because it gives the false impression that children are safer because the adults around them have been "trained." Does anyone have one story of Virtus (or any of its kindred programs) actually preventing once case of abuse?

It is dangerous because it covers up the real causes of abuse(s) in our parishes. Since we've stopped talking about sin and its consequences, but instead promote the happy clappy atmosphere of false love, children (and adults) will continue to suffer abuses of all kinds, and many souls will be lost eternally.

Actually, I believe that dioceses, parishes, and institutions have misinterpreted and misapplied what VIRTUS is supposed to be anyway.

A former lay parish associate was a certified VIRTUS facilitator, and she was incredulous at the mindset of "OK, you're VIRTUS trained, you're "OK" to be around kids." She said that was never the intent of the program. The program is all about ONGOING relationship building, and evaluating situations. It was never meant to be "You got the magic class, now you're safe around kids."

I know of one church where they decided to let <18 into the choir and were told they had to do all this. Last time I heard that choir, they were terrible and almost nonexistent. Cause and effect? dunno.

Yes, we have a Diocesan Child Safety Protocol training (simply called Protocol) that all employees of the church must go through, and so must anyone (including volunteers) that work closely with children. However, if your organization consists only of adults and there are no minors involved, then Protocol is not necessary for the members, but encouraged. If there are minors involved in groups where they would not normally be (such as children in the choir for a special event), only one person must be Protocol trained, and it is not necessary for all other members to undergo the training for that one event. Parents of a child do not need to be Protocol trained in order to work with their own child, but to work with other children, they would need to be. I'm not certain of the policy if someone not Protocol trained is working with a child, and the child's parent is present for the entire session: that may be acceptable, as the child's parent is present. However, if the child's parent is not present, but another adult is, both adults must be Protocol trained. There are lots of situations like that, but it's child safety protocols so I go with the flow. I actually don't have to worry about it, because as an employee of the Diocese, I'm Protocol trained. Our policy is also no adults alone with a child. Charles is also correct, as that is policy in many public and non-public schools, and for good reason.

the Pierogi Ladies were exempt, as were the choir members.

"Pierogi Ladies"?
Hey, are we at the same parish? :oD
The four hours being lectured to by the Virtus "facilitator" and watching the video felt like a week of my life I'll never get back.
And the demi-clerics in charge are surprised that people don't want an on-going relationship with them and their facilitation?
By the way, have they since removed that inane scene where a mom suspects a pervert is chatting up her child and the kid's friends --so she scoops up her child to go home but leaves the other kids at mercy of who knows what? ("not my problem....")
The cleaning ladies who only spoke Russian and a little Polish were a little hiccup in the program, as was one facilitator's umbrage that someone who was not a facilitator would be allowed to translate.
Several arts organization within the parish announced that it wouldn't bother them in the least if their refusal, (or that of jobbed-in professionals,) to take the training meant children couldn't participate.
I think training and protocols for the protection of the Little Ones is one of those things that is absolutely-no-doubt-about-it-necessary that has been gone about in the worst possible way, by people who are in love with process instead of content; and who base their decisions on business models rather than Gospel values.

They'd have saved themselves a lot of money if they'd just looked for a bargain on bulk sales of millstones.

(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

I think training and protocols for the protection of the Little Ones is one of those things that is absolutely-no-doubt-about-it-necessary that has been gone about in the worst possible way, by people who are in love with process instead of content; and who base their decisions on business models rather than Gospel values.

They'd have saved themselves a lot of money if they'd just looked for a bargain on bulk sales of millstones.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIto5mwDLxo

I'm afraid the VIRTUS program strikes me as "straining for gnats and swallowing camels" since in at least one diocese that I have heard of, the real transgressors (who operate with impunity) against the USCCB Charter of Child Protection were not sweet old ladies teaching CCD. In other words, while a spotlight and magnifying glass are kept diligently trained on lay volunteers, clerics are not always vetted as thoroughly. Let's get real: how many times have any of you ever heard of a lay person committing child abuse in a parish setting? Is it really the lay people we have to be concerned about?

Let's get real: how many times have any of you ever heard of a lay person committing child abuse in a parish setting?

There was a youth minister case a few towns over from here.

My diocese posts a list on its website to clarify who has to have a CORI check (criminal records check); not choir members, but directors and any helpers who would have contact with children.

It's not just clerics. Not even mostly clerics. Certainly not most clerics! It's a human problem. A small portion of all humans molest children. So we have to protect children from them.

Sorry? How does your comment follow what I said?

It seems to me that when I was a child I saw the choir as rock stars, someone I wanted to be like when I got older. This rock star status that each choir person is in some kids minds is why all choir members might need training.
Although I personally do not make my choir members be trained but I am as the head.

JulieColl, you've just been uncivil to me. Just thought I'd point that out.

donr, I think that is part of the point. Children tend to admire and trust adults who are leaders, and if you add in the fact that they are religious leaders, the dynamic is redoubled.

I have actually witnessed more examples of elder abuse from their relatives than sexual abuse of minors. That needs some attention, as well. It is good to be aware Most of us are not going to see abuse happening while 20 feet above the floor in a choir loft. You have to be in a situation where you will see any of the signs and since retiring from teaching, I don't see any of that anymore. You are right about VIRTUS. It is a lousy exercise in CYA.

You removed the comment Julie, but I already read it. Many prayers for you.

I'm a member of another forum where, if someone posts something, then thinks better of it and deletes it, a moderator will reinsert the deleted text with a note "Originally deleted by author, re-posted for posterity." They do it so that things MAKE SENSE when someone goes back and reads through it, instead of having to read a ton of "*" and "removed by author" throughout a thread.

I like the idea.

I am old enough to have witnessed applicable laws changing several times concerning child abuse. When I was younger the issue was handled much differently by law enforcement and the courts. It's a different world now.

There's also a difference between being "aware of abuse" and "noticing something vaguely suspicious."

Behind almost every news story about how people "knew what was going on" is a bunch of people who probably only noticed something a little suspicious and didn't want to jump to conclusions and didn't know what to do.

That is what these sorts of trainings are (supposed to be) about.

Even with the training, I'm not going to the diocese or the police or anyone else about some "gut feeling" I have, or something that "looks slightly odd" but in which nothing is proven.

As I recall, VIRTUS encouraged that type of witch hunt mentality. I'm not participating in it.

If I see something concrete which creates an articulable suspicion or actually become aware of something, all bets are off and I'm not stopping at the diocese - I'm going to law enforcement as well.