Through-composed Gloria setting
  • We are weary of using the Andrews 'Mass for Congregations' and the pastor prefers through-composed settings. Any suggestions or thoughts will be appreciated.
  • cmbearer
    Posts: 74
    I really like Jacob Bancks' Mass of the Most Sacred Heart. It used to be available free on the musicasacra web page. Not sure if it still there. You could contact the composer at his website too. http://jbancks.com/home/.

    There's also lots of great settings at http://www.ccwatershed.org/Mass/
    Thanked by 1Patricia Cecilia
  • By 'through composed' I assume you mean 'normal', as opposed to those settings which make of the first phrase a 'refrain' which is repeated at alternate 'verses'. This is a gross savaging of Gloria, and I thought this practice had been forbidden by 'competent ecclesiastical authority'. Is this not so?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    'Competent Ecclesiastical authorities" have given permission for the publishing of dozens and dozens of settings of the Gloria with a refrain.
  • I had heard to the contrary. This is sad, very sad.

    Gloria is a hymn, a psalmus idioticus, with a distinct and deliberate literary form which rather evolved over time. Opening with A) the angelic greeting, glorifying God and assuring peace to those of good will, it then moves to a series of B) acclamations by which we praise, adore and bless God in his great glory; this is followed by C) which is a litany of petition for mercy and forgiveness by Jesus, the Son and the Lamb; finally, D) the Trinity is recognised by adoration of Jesus, the Most High, with the Holy Ghost and the Father. The beauty of this literary shape should not be lost on anyone of the slightest sensitivity to content, and reverence for this treasure from our heritage.

    Gloria is not a verse and refrain song, nor was it ever intended to be. It is not a responsorial nor an antiphonal form. Making it into such is utterly to misapprehend its form, content, and message. Doing so is the sort of literary savagery (blind butchery!) which has become widespread in the Church ever since the II. Vatican Council, all with the blessing of those 'competent ecclesiastical authorities' who are supposed to be the guardians of our patrimony - not to mention our very own mendacious publishers (philistines all!) who are always on the look-out for some new, trendy, cute, clever and cretinesque novel to sell to unwitting multitudes.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    Bartlett has this Mode VIII Gloria in the Lumen Christi Missal and Lumen Christi Gradual, which is quite nice and very congregation-friendly. http://www.illuminarepublications.com
    722 x 1086 - 252K
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    'Competent Ecclesiastical authorities" have given permission for the publishing of dozens and dozens of settings of the Gloria with a refrain.
    authority on what? probably not art.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    My setting of the Gloria (yes, rare, as it is something I composed in English)

    See and Hear score of Gloria by FK
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • Proulx's A Community Mass Gloria is nice and through composed. If simplicity is your desire, the Lee Congregational Gloria has been revised as well. The Mass VIII adaptation is also very nice from the Vatican II Hymnal (attached as pdf).
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    We sing the Andrews Gloria (or at least some Andrews Gloria) straight through without a refrain. Is that an option?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Chuck, out of curiosity and definitely not muckraking,
    Some of the post MR3 settings composers have strategically set the text to either ignore a refrain for a through composed text, but added the coda of a reiterated "Gloria in excelsis" after either version. In the case of the latter, how stand ye, O sage of the Midwest?
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    If you need something non-chant, I'd suggest the Mass in Honor of St. Benedict. If you have an SATB choir, the middle-choral-section is quite pleasing:
    http://www.litpress.org/Products/3434/mass-3mdashin-honor-of-saint-benedict-accompanimentchoir-edition.aspx
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Well, O MeloSage of the Left Coast, I didn't coda-fy my own Gloria. But the concluding phrase (at "Jesus Christ, with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father") recapitulates one of the main motives that appears earlier in my setting. After singing "in the glory of God the Father" like that, it would have seemed redundant to add a "Glory to God in the highest" Coda after that.

    Long ago, in my pre-RotR (& certainly pre-MR3) days, I did compose a (forgettable) Gloria that had a refrain and, for a Coda, some rather elaborate (okay, excessive) Amens. I don't even know if I still have the score buried somewhere (it was that long ago, hand written), and even if I did, I would be loathe to try to update the text and the music now.

    If anything, though, I probably share MJO's viewpoint on the structure of the Gloria as a multipart hymn, much in the same way that I understand the Te Deum. So, adding a repeat of the "Glory to God in the highest" as a final coda just doesn't feel right to me, on theological/liturgical/hymnological/aesthetic grounds. Better, it seems to me, to let the music in the final phrase(s) evoke a summing up of all that has gone before.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Gloria is not a verse and refrain song, nor was it ever intended to be. It is not a responsorial nor an antiphonal form
    .

    This is of course true, but the Glorias in the Kyriale do lend themselves very well to antiphonal singing, since in many cases the strophes repeat the melody or have identical cadences which create an echo effect when the choir/congregation alternate or men/women alternate.

    Gloria VI:

    image
    Thanked by 1francis
  • True, Julie, and singing sections in alternation by two groups is a practice with a considerable historical pedigree. However, this is hardly the same thing as savaging the form by making it into a sing-song refrain. Whoever thought up this silly practice should be barred from practicing music in the Church and required to pay a fine.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    MJO, I'd completely forgotten about that bizarre practice. I remember singing a happy-clappy, swinging Gloria like that in the diocesan choir decades ago.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Thanked by 2JulieColl Gavin
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    As long as we're on through composed, does anyone know whether Jonathan Ryan's Tuesday Ordinary from colloquium based upon a Leo Sowerby setting is available in SATB or multiple voicings? Or could someone point me to the original Sowerby?
    Thanks.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 314
    I'm rather pleased with the way mine came out:

    http://www.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/14/01/15/15-28-25_0.pdf

    If you have the St Michael Hymnal handy, both the Rice "Mass of the Sacred Heart" and the O'Connor "Mass of St. Michael" are worth a look.
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    CHG and Francis, thanks for sharing your music with us. I enjoyed them thoroughly!! Are these compositions in print anywhere?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Hi, kentsb. The Gloria is available for free download at CPDL.

    Note that the entire Missa Ascensionis Domini, of which this Gloria is a part, will be available very soon.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • CGM
    Posts: 683
    And I'm partial to mine, which (I think) made a good showing at the 2012 Colloquium. Scroll down to "Choir alone" and click on "Gloria," for the best recording:

    http://www.benesonarium.com/roman-missal/

  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    CGM

    nice!
    Thanked by 2CGM Andrew Motyka
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    What is now GIRM 53 provides in relevant part:

    "The Gloria in excelsis (Glory to God in the highest) . . . is intoned by the Priest or, if appropriate, by a cantor or by the choir; but it is sung either by everyone together, or by the people alternately with the choir, or by the choir alone. If not sung, it is to be recited either by everybody together or by two choirs responding one to the other."

    While I agree that the time-honored way to alternate is as described in the comments above, this provision in GIRM has been interpreted also to permit a refrain as a form of alternation. That's the root of the innovation. Unless and until authorities with jurisdiction expressly abrogate such an interpretation, it's likely to continue. While I strongly prefer to avoid refrain-structured Glorias, I can tolerate them as training wheels for congregations to gradually learn new settings of the Gloria, with the idea being that the use of the refrain structure would gradually be eliminated.
  • I've had good success with mine over the past year and a half - adapted from the Marian hymn "wunderschoen praechtige" (Austrian rather than German melodic variant for those who know the tune).
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    We sang Chris' "Tertione" for a year with some intermittent diversions to ICEL and Sherwin. The choir loves it, as I believe the PIPs did as well. The only nagging (at least to me) aspect is what to do if the intrinsic beauty of a Gloria or Sanctus serves to dissuade actuosa from the PIPs?
    Of course I know all of the arguments that exonerate "us" from needing to actually worry about this stuff, but if y'all remember, I asked theoretically if it's possible to achieve a balance of aesthetics and participation in a thread a year or so ago.
    It seems to me that reatively unmetered settings like Nickel's St Therese or the Sherwin (even the ICEL which I use with my accompaniment and faux ison/obigato in the Sops) have a sort of advantage over the metered settings that have come out since MR3.
  • Horst Buchholz's Mass of St. Francis is very good, and fits well with traditional hymnody. It is in the Adoremus hymnal, but he holds the copyright and would probably let you use it. http://www.adoremus.org/BuchholzMassofStFrancis.pdf
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    It seems to me that reatively unmetered settings like Nickel's St Therese or the Sherwin (even the ICEL which I use with my accompaniment and faux ison/obigato in the Sops) have a sort of advantage over the metered settings that have come out since MR3.


    Quite.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    I put in a vote for the Proulx mentioned. It is very durable. Also, there are many of his other masses such as mass for the city and several composed on chant tunes that are very fine.
  • Through-composed? Um, does that mean the composer is finished with it???
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen kenstb
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Through-composed means that the music is relatively continuous, non-sectional, and/or non-repetitive ... as opposed to strophic (when setting poetic texts with each strophe set to the same music). A repeated refrain in a Gloria setting would disqualify it from being through-composed.

    Through-composed also is a technique of composition, wherein the composer starts composing at the beginning of a piece and composes it linearly, straight through ... hence the term "through-composed" music: no writing a middle section first or an end section before finishing the middle, etc. Most of my compositions are through-composed in this sense.
    Thanked by 1kenstb
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 331
    Our music director was surprised to hear that you could do the Gloria without a refrain. I got him to do the Andrews Gloria for a couple of months, but I don't think the pastor liked it, so we'll see if it shows up again.
  • Holy Angels Mass, by yours truly. (based mainly on Mass VIII and Jubilate Deo) :)
    BMP
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I've had good success with mine over the past year and a half - adapted from the Marian hymn "wunderschoen praechtige" (Austrian rather than German melodic variant for those who know the tune).


    @kirchenmusik: I love it! Two things: 1) that "dominant" in m. 40 is PURPLE!!!! :) 2) How do you find the tessitura for the congregation? The room here doesn't really like things that lie in that middle C-G range much, but rather the fifth above that. I'm just interested because (at least from pictures) I'd think you have a similar room in your job. Thoughts?
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,465
    MJO..Thats like Schuberts unfinished symphony: said the concertgoer; "jeez for the price of these tickets, you wd think tgat we could get a whole piece!".
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • Caleferink
    Posts: 429
    I'm particularly fond of the Siena Chant Mass by Br. Michael O'Connor, OP. I think calling it a "chant" Mass is a bit of a misnomer as it pretty much begs for organ accompaniment (the organ accompaniment could be adapted into a lovely SATB, too), but I find it inherently singable, nobly simple with potential to be more solemnized, and yet to many ears will sound rather contemporary (if that is a concern). The text and music flow nicely with each other and not dictated by a set meter (probably hence the "chant" term). It, like his "Mass of St. Michael," is in the St. Michael Hymnal.
  • Ben Yanke really needs to put together a youtube site of all of these for easy comparison. Ben...Ben? BENNNNN!
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Schubert's Symphony No. 8 should be paired with Nielsen's Symphony No. 4 (the "Inexhaustible").
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Schubert's Symphony No. 8 should be paired with Nielsen's Symphony No. 4 (the "Inexhaustible").

    That's it, KLS, I'm done! ;-)
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    I believe it's the "Inextinguishable" symphony. Nielsen was a great composer, though.

    One might also pair the Schubert 8th ("Unfinished") with the Mahler 10th or Bruckner 9th, instead ... both being unfinished.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • And I'm partial to mine, which (I think) made a good showing at the 2012 Colloquium. Scroll down to "Choir alone" and click on "Gloria," for the best recording:

    http://www.benesonarium.com/roman-missal/


    Wait, how was I not aware of this setting before now? That is seriously beautiful.
    Thanked by 2Adam Wood CGM
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,945
    Chuck

    You are correct.

    Of course, there's always my favorite, Bruckner's 8th (the "Apocalyptic"). The final 10 minutes, with von Karajan conducting the VPO (how Bruckner erupts, then pulls everything back in a very extended tease (in multiple senses of the word - "I tease, therefore I am" could be a Brucknerian motto) before the final 75 seconds of music):

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uvpXqAjnBFI
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    And I'm partial to mine, which (I think) made a good showing at the 2012 Colloquium. Scroll down to "Choir alone" and click on "Gloria," for the best recording:

    http://www.benesonarium.com/roman-missal/


    Wait, how was I not aware of this setting before now? That is seriously beautiful.




    Because you don't read my blog, apparently.

    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • I didn't read that one, that's for sure. I'm not sure I agree with you that it's not a congregational setting. I am pretty confident that my parish would not only sing this, but would love it.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Adam Wood CGM
  • Bruce - Our room tends to be treble-heavy as well, but to my ear the fifth down to middle C still comes through well. My more mundane consideration is just that I like to have a full octave to work with, and the high end of the D-D octave often seems to be a strain on the congregation. I know some will disagree with me on that, but it's just my experience.
    Thanked by 1BruceL
  • We are weary of using the Andrews 'Mass for Congregations' and the pastor prefers through-composed settings. Any suggestions or thoughts will be appreciated.


    A Community Mass
    Mass of Wisdom
    Missa de Angelis
    Mass of Christ the Savior
    ICEL Chant
    John Lee-Richard Proulx
    Mass of St. Ann ;-)
    Thanked by 1ChapmanGonzalez
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    IMHO, YMMV

    A Community Mass- this, for me, is Proulx at his most unimaginative, virtual Gebrauchsmuzick, the organ/choral counterpart to the old SLJ Mass.
    Do his Simplex, Mass for the City, or if someone who holds his copyrights at OCP would get off the dime and revise his Responsorial or Oecumenica.

    The De Angelis- what's to go wrong here? Nothing. People must buy into the Latin tho'.

    The ICEL- it is a virtual mandate in Anglophone conferences, get used to that and do everyone a favor and insist upon its acquisition and at least use the Kyrie, Gloria, Creed and Agnus Dei. I don't care if it's a capella, or accompanied or arranged by Sir Thomas Beechum's great-great grandson, provide the PIPs with what chosen by LA/ICEL.

    I've only copies of the unrevised Lee, but folks speak of it well consistently.

    St. Ann (Bolduc?) one of the best of the contemporary ensemble genre.

    Even more adaptable and more preferable than Massive Cre...., uh....the Haugen is Bob Hurd's accessible and variable Santa Clara Mass.

    I noticed in the GIA shill catalog that Joncas has revised the John Carroll Mass. That would be worth a look.
  • The John Carroll is not through-composed

    How about either the People's Mass or Mass of Christian Unity by Vermulst?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Bobby, did Joncas not allow for a through version with maybe a refrain reprised at the end?