Scruton on Beauty
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Roger Scruton (BBC/Scotland) discusses the need for beauty and, following Plato, links beauty with God. Note that Scruton distinguishes "utility" art from "real" art--something which Benedict XVI also mentioned. Also note how Scruton's description of 'utility' art indicts some of the music-for-worship stuff which regularly crawls into the Liturgy and gasses the faithful, even though they just love the stuff.

    http://creamcitycatholic.com/2014/07/17/beauty-matters/
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    I had dinner with Scruton while I was in university. A truly wonderful fellow that exemplifies the phrase "gentleman and a scholar"
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    a simply wonderful and true statement, dad29.

    ...a beautiful breath of fresh air in a world gone ugly.

    We as musicians (truly dedicated to beauty) need only to leave the ugly structures that try to entrap us within their utilitarian walls; to simply walk away, and visit them no longer. We need only those things which draw out and reveal the beauty of our own life and the lives of others. The grafitti of ugliness will eventually be the town deserted, and we will no longer have need to scream into the darkness, but turn around and simply gaze into the light.
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    But might one make the case that there is 'utility' in the utility art, and thus it's not necessarily ugly and necessarily not unnecessary.

    And if you think I didn't not have to undo some of the negatives by re-editing you're not necessarily right.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    mrcopper

    There is definitely 'utility' in utility art, I can't argue with that. But what percentage of utility music is truly beautiful?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    What we have to consider is not eliminating utility music--which often shows up as improvs-while-waiting-for-the-priest.

    What we have to consider is making even utility music as beautiful as possible. I would suggest that Chant-tune improvs are excellent prospects for that.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    ahhhh... that kind of utility music requires talent and expertise... tall order!
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    And the judgment of time?

    Are not all propers "utility music", at least in the sense of serving alone the ends of the liturgy?
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  • ProfKwasniewskiProfKwasniewski
    Posts: 242
    I wrote last week at NLM about this very topic -- the contrast between utility music and church music, secundum mentem Ratzinger (and brought in Scruton, BTW):

    http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/2014/07/church-music-versus-utility-music.html

    I think there's a question here of terminology. EVERYTHING good that we do is useful in some way, because we are needy beggars; unlike God, we cannot do something that is purely and totally void of any usefulness to us. The question is about the character of the work of art itself -- but anyway, see the article above for more.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    There's a cable television network called AWE (All Wealth Entertainment) that among other veddy artful programs has one in which a city is "profiled" via the life and works of famed composers. Nice, niche idea I think.
    One show featured the music of Saint-Saens and Debussy, the latter being one of my top ten "genius of all time" composers, and their relationship to Paris during those late Romantic, early Impressionist eras. Now this is going to digress, so bear with me.
    IIRC, wasn't Erik Satie's oeuvre a sort of post-Impressionist/DaDa reaction to the complexity of the SS/Debussy/Messaien school?
    So, I suppose what I'm asking amounts to "how do we assess the utility versus beauty ratio of music like Satie's Trois gymnopedie? For that matter, same question for much of Copland's stuff (Appalachian Spring springs to mind!)
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  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Satie had, imo, an astounding ability to make essential music, but could not go beyond his immediate sense of 'taste': he was an improvisor. ... (Messaien was later). Debussy was a well trained,skilled, and talented musician, who could plan music, complex though it might be. I think Copland might be intermediate between the two ... reasonably skilled, but less skilled than Debussy and less inspired than Satie. All opinions, so don't parbroil me.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Nicest post ever, William.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Messaien... interesting experiment, but for me, that's about it.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Copland?
    Pop and broadway parading as classical!
    Thanked by 2Gavin Daniel Bennett Page
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Thank you , Professor.

    As to Gymnopedie: our DirMus played one of them, on the piano, as a communion 'meditation'. Although our DirMus is credentialed with a Ph.D., after listening to his work, one suspects that the degree was granted in a mixologically-oriented establishment.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I've heard it on the organ similarly, and it wasn't unpleasant.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    I play Satie, but in a museum accompanying a dinner and wine... thought for food.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    The Satie was not unpleasant. But like Sousa, it is not fitting in that setting.
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  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    degree was granted in a mixologically-oriented establishment.


    That's an idea ...
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  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Hark! Have we some new modes??

    Dorian - Hypodorian
    Phrygian - Hypophrygian
    Lydian - Hypolydian
    Mixolydian - Hypomixolydian
    Logical -Hypological
    Mixological - Hypomixological
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen francis Salieri Gavin
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Hypochondrian
    Mixedupapparitional
    Phrygginwrongagain
    Hypoillogical
    Hypomantillian
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen Salieri Gavin
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,368
    Potomus - Hypopotomus
    Mixopotomus - Hypomixopotomus
    Thanked by 4CharlesW CHGiffen Salieri Gavin
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    Dermical - Hypodermical
    Mixodermical - Hypomixodermical
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Salieri M. Jackson Osborn
  • mrcoppermrcopper
    Posts: 653
    Hypomixodermical music: it's insufficiently interesting to get into your skin?

    See utility, above.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Salieri Gavin
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Mixological - Hypomixological

    I guess MJO is the CMAA member whose return we are still awiting: http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/11013/catholic-jokes-as-requested-by-melo/p1
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Dipsomaniacal.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Hyposubdermical: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XCVnV5CGh0
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